Debt

when you taper down business, jobs are lost, and thats what we are trying to avoid isnt it? or in the mind of typical righties, quit spending, layoff, and increase profits.....not really fixing a problem, the life cycle of any economy is based on growth and people working, you guys dance around the truth, you have to go forward not backwards, you pull back and you de-value because now you have a workforce that will work for less money, with less money, you dont buy new cars, furniture, steak, new tenni's for the kids, and the end result is a stall in the economy because there is no spending.
profit isnt a dirty word, but stealing is.
when you break this all down it effects the middleclass the most, the rich have money and will always have money, eventually on this path it will be a third world economy, "the poor" and "the rich"

eric lavine wrote: damn you pubbys, they went into the red because of the internet, not overspending,

Eric, In business it is understood that products have a life cycle. You invest at the beginning of the cycle, enjoy the run in the middle and then tapper down as it comes to an end, if you are smart you find another product to replace the dying one. The post office had an amazing run but it is nearing the end of its useful life for the reasons you state. it is time to tapper down If there sales volumes are down and they do not reduce spending to match, then they are overspending. It hurts, and knowone likes it but it is just a fact of life.

hah, now we are getting to the root of the problem, cut cut cut. I dont know about you but im sick of eating peanut butter sandwiches.

there were 2 things you couldve done, generate more income or simply bring your monthly bills within your means. there would be adverse actions if you start cutting in government, you just cant cut cut cut, once commited to these programs you cant pull back or you will have a ghost town. these million dollar programs are not even a spec in the wealth this country is use to....
the post office when all done and said generates a trillion dollars to the economy, everytime gas goes up a penny a gallon it costs the USPS 1 million dollars. it is essential to spur businesses and not pull back because it feeds the economy, if you eiliminated the post office all it would do is throw another 200,000 workers or whatever the number is back into a shakey jobless economy.
we need growth,
these guys (government) aint no dummys sittin around a fire sipping beers, at the end of the day if the country isnt making money they arnt making money, and i really dont think Obama has the word fail in his agenda.
I watched the last debates and will watch the next round, I hate the blame game, even against what i would consider amongst themselves, they are a party and the day they come out and say, 1 of us will be the prsident and this is what one of us is going to do.....im fcn sick of business as usual, thats why were in the ***************hole were in

eric lavine wrote: i had a motorhome a boat and no worries, not no more, i simply adapted, i didnt go out and overspend, at the time i still lived within my means....thats all

Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner! Or, as stated above, welcome to the rebublican party.

Does anyone know of anything gov't that closed/stopped/ended?!!? And no, renaming an agency or department doesn't count.

As far as cuts, start with the easiest, and those that have the least effect on those being served. Eliminate earmarks, they are political payoff at best (Barack campained on this but there were 3000 last year). Eliminate duplication and unnecesary departments. (we had no department of education untill the 1970's). Eliminate fraud and waste. Cut percentages from everything equally across the board. let legislators set guidlines but let the decisions be made (with review) at the lowest possible levels, so they make sense. This is where an experienced CEO as president, instead of a community organizer, would be very bennificial.

eric lavine wrote: so we apparently know the problem now, so lets switch our thoughts to where the cuts can be made. dont throw salaries out there or these meaningless little million dollar retreats, im just curious as to where you would start the cuts Dave, in the other thread i mentioned the post office, in reality its suffering from LOM, lack of money

Eric, LOM often comes from spending unnecessarily.

phospher wrote: I'm quoting someone here(I don't actually know who wrote this) that I happen to agree with.. "I realize the attacks are political, and so fact won't matter to many, but the facts are: 1) This is NOT about his personal taxes, which are quite simple and have been paid. 2) This is about the "consolida­ted" tax returns for Berkshire Hathaway, which are complex enough to drive a CPA mad...Berk­shire owns companies ranging from Sees Candy and GEICO Insurance all the way to the Burlington Northern Railroad, all of which operate under about a million different tax and accounting rules...no­t to mention holding that don't control the companies in many others. 3) It's perfectly normal for such a complex company like this to be involved in ongoing disputes with the IRS. There are lots of issues where perfectly honest people can differ as to the tax treatment. When the dust settles, if they owe, they pay, with interest, and perhaps penalties.­..it's quite possible that they could also get refunds...­either way the taxes get paid. 4) While he owns a good deal of the company, he has thousands of stockholde­rs to answer to. 5) He has a fiduciary duty to the thousands of Berkshire Hathaway stockholde­rs to pay what the company is determined to owe, but not a penny more...unl­ess he wants to spend his last years in court being sued for breech of that duty." Also, it doesn't sound like the IRS has determined what the amount is for the years in dispute. So, given that, how much should he be writing the check out for? or should he just guess?

Phil,Thank you, that is an awesome answer, You clearly stated what ANYONE in business must do. They hire good people to negotiate the path through an incredibly complicated system of rules and regulations. They protect themselves and position themselves to be competitive and meet the demands of boardmembers and stockholders. Sometimes this means difficult decisions like moving all or part of a company offshore to stay competitive. All they want is a friendly place to do business. This leads me back to the title of this thread "debt". This country has historically collected 19% of GDP with very liitle varience in collections regardless of rate changes for different groups, and that is not likely to change much. We can debate fair shares all day and all it does is distract us from the real problem. Currently we are spending at a rate over 25% of GDP and it is growing towards 50% quickly. If we only collect 19% at every tax formula we have tried, then it makes sense to me that our budget needs to be at 19% of GDP, anything more will be a deficit, which we will have to borrow or print money for, and money devalued or paid in interest cannot be used to pay for services. For now we need to focus on spending, specifically cutting it across the board till we get it down to 19% of GDP so we can pay for what we are using, then we can afford to get distracted with arguments of how to to make it "fair" and less complicated.

OverMyHead wrote: phospher wrote: davidg wrote: I also don't buy this BS of "Well, we need the illegals....American's won't do the work they do". BS again. With the unemployment rate at 9%+, people will work!! Wait, I thought they would rather sit back and collect unemployment and live off welfare? Ya know, the luxuries of a couple hundo a week and cable TV! Nothing like living the dream without having to work! And OverMyHead, Calling Buffet a "tax cheat" because his corporate accountant­s for Berkshire Hathaway took tax positions on deductions that IRS disagreed with is an ignorant ad hominem attack with no basis in fact. According to IRS regulation­s, an aggressive tax position on deductibil­ity of expenses is not considered "frivolous­" if the position has at least a 1 in 3 chance of prevailing­. Furthermore, Warren Buffet knows what's written in his own annual report long before it's been released to everyone else, and certainly long before he made his statements regarding the American tax inequalities­­. Phil, you are the one complaining about loopholes and write offs, now when yout buddy Warren use them it is agressive tax accounting?....which is it?

I am not big on do what I say, not what I do. If Wareen believes what he says he believes than he can instruct his accountants to take a less agressive stance, pay more taxes, and then hold his percentage up in public and challenge others to do the same. That I could respect. Currently he is speaking out both sides of his mouth. "The rich dont pay enough" in public, and "take every questionable deduction" to his accountants in private. If you are going to lecture others you should have your own house in order first. A one in three chance of prevailing is a two in three chance of being a tax cheat. I noticed when walmart was mentioned they were not called "agressive", they were labeled "not paying taxes".

I count 4 assumptions in your previous post that are factually wrong. Sorry, not worth the typing practice.

phospher wrote: davidg wrote: I also don't buy this BS of "Well, we need the illegals....American's won't do the work they do". BS again. With the unemployment rate at 9%+, people will work!! Wait, I thought they would rather sit back and collect unemployment and live off welfare? Ya know, the luxuries of a couple hundo a week and cable TV! Nothing like living the dream without having to work! And OverMyHead, Calling Buffet a "tax cheat" because his corporate accountant­s for Berkshire Hathaway took tax positions on deductions that IRS disagreed with is an ignorant ad hominem attack with no basis in fact. According to IRS regulation­s, an aggressive tax position on deductibil­ity of expenses is not considered "frivolous­" if the position has at least a 1 in 3 chance of prevailing­. Furthermore, Warren Buffet knows what's written in his own annual report long before it's been released to everyone else, and certainly long before he made his statements regarding the American tax inequalities­­.

Phil, you are the one complaining about loopholes and write offs, now when yout buddy Warren use them it is agressive tax accounting?....which is it?

OMG finally, one is not looking to the government to solve a problem. the core of this discussion was just realized.
funny how things work, my friend was bragging just yesterday, both his daughter and son in law work in DC, both cracking 70 ish a year.I laughed cause he sends them money to get them out of a jam frequently.
my wife doesnt work, so i dont bring in close to those 2 figures combined.....heres the difference, they are paying 3500.00 month for a roof over there heads, probably 2 big car payments, everything is twice the price.

I vowed years ago not to have 2 car payments, yeah yeah, spur the economy, now im down to no car payments, and on the weekends i can go get my lobster, i dont own a credit card, only one for the business, pay cash for everything.......im a different person not worrying about keeping up with the joneses...and i have cash set aside to put the kids thru at least 2 years of college, but invested for when the time comes (if the pubbies dont rob me anymore) they should be able to do the 4 year stint. to me thats what its all about

ononewheel wrote: So the solution to the problem is........... Nothing, that's it, nothing, zero. Do nothing.    Don't spend. Cut everything. All of it. Don't raise a bit more money. None, zero. Not one penny. The Governemnt is you, that is like starving yourself. Yep, sounds like that'll lead to a wonderful nation, with progress being made to take us someplace better than here. That about sums up the tea party and the party whom have ridden the tea party coat tails for far too long. Can't we just gather the tea party and ship them all to live in Texas, separate from the US? Yeah, school funding and union jobs are our problem. Sure. You say that like it is our main problem. I say one thing, if the Republicans are going to stand firm against everything Obama does for the next 14 months, and show the reckless grandstanding they have done with the debt ceiling, they will experience poor results in any election, regardless of Obama's actions. It should all be on the table. Immigation, taxes, healthcare, military funding, war spending, TAXES, job creation, school funding. Cut some Raise some. Who the hell would say, "we are not meeting budget, hummm, I will just cut expenses, and never ever look at raising revenue."? Corporations do just that. ***************, I don't care if I get ALL payroll taxes back every week. What does that get me, groceries? Maybe, but with two boys, not likely. I need more, I cut and raise. Both Simple. I'm voting whoever isn't riding the Tea party express.

Cuting and raising depend on your situtation. The government can get short term money by raising taxes and deficit spending but that decreases their income long term. The other solution is to create the conditions for growth, which pays off short and long term.

If one is in the situation where they have dined out nightly on steak and lobster, and now they are not only fat and sluggish but they have maxed out thier home equity line and all their credit cards, the problem is not likely to be solved by a few percent more income. They can ask for increases in their credit limit but this will only dig them into a deaper hole. At some point they must take a look in the mirror and say I am fat, bloated, sluggish and broke because I have been self indulgent and irresponsible. This is a great point to starve yourself, it saves money and starts to make you leaner, the next step is exercise, looking for ways proactive ways to cut the excess fat and speed the process. This is not easy. It takes dedication to the tasks. It invovles a lot of whining, It hurts to watch those around you indulge while you miss out on the "good things". But in the long term you reduce the stress on your systems both physical and finacial, you feel good that you made the changes and you live longer. You end up wonderfull and in a better place. Or you can get another credit card, keep dining out on steak and lobster, maybe add some shrimp, and then try to dig yourself out of a deeper whole later. The writing is on the wall, it says wake up!!!!!


I would love to have a few states that were all republican and a few that were all democrat just to see what the end result would be. What a cool experiment.

once again, kill the incentives, track down the fat cats that hire these people, they arnt sight seeing they are coming here to work and that means a bonified US citizen is paying them.....those are the guys you have to go after.
fck, their killing eachother off at a fast rate anyways down there because of the drug trade

So the solution to the problem is...........

Nothing, that's it, nothing, zero. Do nothing.   

Don't spend. Cut everything. All of it.

Don't raise a bit more money. None, zero. Not one penny.

The Governemnt is you, that is like starving yourself.

Yep, sounds like that'll lead to a wonderful nation, with progress being made to take us someplace better than here.

That about sums up the tea party and the party whom have ridden the tea party coat tails for far too long. Can't we just gather the tea party and ship them all to live in Texas, separate from the US?


Yeah, school funding and union jobs are our problem.
Sure. You say that like it is our main problem.

I say one thing, if the Republicans are going to stand firm against everything Obama does for the next 14 months, and show the reckless grandstanding they have done with the debt ceiling, they will experience poor results in any election, regardless of Obama's actions.

It should all be on the table. Immigation, taxes, healthcare, military funding, war spending, TAXES, job creation, school funding.

Cut some Raise some.

Who the hell would say, "we are not meeting budget, hummm, I will just cut expenses, and never ever look at raising revenue."?
Corporations do just that.

***************, I don't care if I get ALL payroll taxes back every week. What does that get me, groceries? Maybe, but with two boys, not likely.
I need more, I cut and raise. Both Simple.


I'm voting whoever isn't riding the Tea party express.

I find it rather ironic that when we went to Mexico earlier this summer, the Mexican immigration offic had to have my great-grandmothers social security number before I could get into or out of their beautiful country. But, the Mexican government seems to condone illegal immigration into the US. I love how the Mexican government also condems Arizona's strong anti-illegal immigration laws. Can you say hypocrasy???

We have laws in this country for a reason. I think Obama, and Bush for that matter too, have ignored our immigration laws to the dentriment of this country. Immigration is fine, but just make sure it LEGAL immigration.

I also don't buy this BS of "Well, we need the illegals....American's won't do the work they do". BS again. With the unemployment rate at 9%+, people will work!!