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Acceleration issues.

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KENO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2022 at 12:14pm
Or if you screw up the connector plug or a terminal like I usually do, or just want a new one, you can get a whole new "HEI wiring harness and capacitor kit".

Click on the link below for lots of choices

It doesn't have to come from DUI either


It's an easy swap Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2022 at 11:22am
Sometimes you can expand the pin without de-pinning the connector.  Otherwise you need to remove the pin from the back of the connector then expand it and then push it back into the same hole until it clicks in.  You can usually look into the connector to see how it clicks in.  Then use something small and pointy to release the pin as you pull slightly on the wire.  There are plenty of YouTube videos showing how to de-pin a connector.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2022 at 11:06am
Thank you fellas!

The first photo that KENO posted (the one with 3 contacts) is the one that is loose. It easily slides up and down and is only being held on by a very small amount of friction and if not for the plastic retention clips would likely slide off. Is there a way to carefully expand the contacts to snug up the fit or is a replacement connector the only option? Thanks for the photos as well KENO, extremely helpful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2022 at 7:31am
Here are a couple pictures of the plugs on your distributor.

The first one with 3 contacts is power to the ignition module under the cap and the coil on top of the cap.

The second one is the plug for power to the distributor and the tach connection. Like you said, you have a clip just like the second one connecting your power (you can see it in the first picture you posted in this thread) It looks like you have 2 individual plugs instead of one with 2 connectors but they accomplish the same thing.

Moving the cap around (like taking it off) can disturb that 3 connector plug. Some people unplug it and others just pull the cap and never pay any attention to that connector to verify that it's plugged in tightly and clipped.

I'd be checking the condition of all those terminals since a bad connection at any of them is never a good thing Wink

You could check the connections to the ignition module while the cap is off too

If the 2 connector power plug is bad/questionable a replacement pigtail with that plug is cheap


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-26-2022 at 10:55pm
If they are spade connectors, they are not as tight as they should be for sure, as there was a lot of movement in them. They seemed loose when I checked them and pushed them together, but I was only checking to make sure outer plastic retention clips (if that's the right term) were connected. Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-26-2022 at 9:40pm
If I remember correctly those connectors should just be push on spades.  You can check connector retention just by pulling on them slightly.  If they pull off easily then just take a pair of needle nose pliers and crimp them a little and try again.  It should take some effort to pull them off the distributor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-26-2022 at 9:24pm
I may finally be on to breaking this boat's efforts to fight against me. I stumbled onto something today that produced very positive results. I'm not yet claiming problem solved, but we have to be extremely close. 

When it returned from the last shop after they put the distributor gear back on, it would reportedly start, idle and then die off idle. They also reported it only had 13psi vacuum. I worked my way through the "slipped timing tooth theory" (thanks to you all) and finally put everything back together. I finally started it yesterday and idled but it didn't sound great. Off idle it stumbled hard and would die. When it would run it would idle low. I confirmed the timing was holding a really steady 10*. I stopped for the day. 

In getting ready to post those findings, I went back through to see what other suggestions I needed to report back as well. So, I decided to triple check the cap again knowing the rotor hit something when it died on the lake and the cap looked perfect and I put the cap back on. The other was to check there was 12V at the distributor. It indicated 11.8 but the battery is likely low from all the start attempts at the shop. I then double checked the connection/clips to the BAT and TACH terminals on the distributor by just making sure they were clipped in. There was really no reason to start the boat again and see if I could slowly get it off idle but I thought let's give one more try to confirm and it FIRED RIGHT UP AND SOUNDED GREAT!! Great throttle response and holds higher RPM's no problem. After turning it off and staring at it in shock for a bit, I tried a re-start and it started instantly (like touch the key start) it has never done that before. Did it twice to confirm. I also checked the vacuum which is back to a steady 15psi. 

The only thing that changed between yesterday and today was I pulled and checked the cap, confirmed 12V to distributor and double checked the connection/clips to the BAT and TACH terminals. The answer must lie here, my guess is a bad/loose connection or ground etc. I left well enough alone at this point. I need to confirm all of those connections since it was the first shop that installed the new distributor. So any recommendations on the best way to do that would be appreciated. I assume I can just remove the clips from the distributor and inspect them but I'm not touching anything right now as I want to enjoy a few days of victory with this boat before digging in for a closer look. Big smile

Thanks again everyone!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2022 at 7:52pm
As others stated compression does not seem to be your issue.   I ran my 78 Nautique for a summer with a burned valve, it was a little weak but still ran and sounded pretty good.   We even barefoot behind it while it was running with the burned valve.   So it had plenty of power.   You have something else messed up.   I am curious how it runs just like it sits now that you are sure you have a working distributor and timing is close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2022 at 6:55pm
I was really hoping the mushrooms on KENO's pizza were going provide to the visionary answers I have been looking for on this boat. Big smile 
Thank you for confirming everything looks OK at this point, I really appreciate it.

I am going to start putting things back together this week and inspecting things well as I do it. Hopefully I will get it fired up on the trailer by this weekend with some news to report. I found the DUI instructions with the troubleshooting section for some light reading as well just in case I need to go down that road at some point (hopefully not). Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2022 at 12:17pm
It looks A OK to me Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2022 at 11:07am
I was able verify some things this am. Just for clarification, the previous photo with the piece of paper with the marking #1 on the wire was where #1 used to be before going to the last shop. That is in fact where the #2 wire is and should be located now as KENO stated. See the below photos.

Ok, when I removed the plugs I marked every wire with the correct cylinder location (based on the photo provided earlier in confirming the firing order). So, I went back out and turned the motor to TDC with the dampener at TDC as well as the rotor pointing to #1 wire in photo below. I then marked all of the wires on the distributor starting with #1 and working my way around CCW. Then checked that the markings at the distributor matched the markings at the plug end. 1 to1, 8 to 8 and so on. They all matched. I have looked at these wires so many times in dealing with this boat that I could be going cross-eyed though. If anyone sees anything in the photo that does not appear correct please let me know. Thanks everyone.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2022 at 6:55am
I imagine we should let him verify what he has for a firing order before getting too excited, but if 3 and 5 are reversed, they'd both be firing on the exhaust stroke since they're opposite from each other in the firing order.

Just swap the wires around, they'll fire when they're supposed to, and see what happens.

The picture from real early in the thread, before the distributor issue seems right on the wire arrangement

Edit..............verify that what you have labeled as #1 really goes to #1spark plug before changing anything around, a little voice in my head says that wire might go to #2 spark plug and the wiring is right 

Or in other words that paper should say #2 not #1


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2022 at 10:09pm
That would do it for sure!   A shop was paid to do this work?   I know some shops are very good and do magic repairs but the number of hacks out there taking money amazes me.
When you go to fix your fire order on the plug wires remember this is a FORD, Ford engines are 1234 on bank one and 567 and 8 on bank 2.
If you look straight down on your engine above your distributor and engine pulleys you will see one cylinder head is about 1” forward of the other at the front of the engine.   This forward head is always bank 1 where your #1 cylinder is on a V8 engine to get started.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2022 at 8:40pm
Good catch, Ken!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2022 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by AZ86SKI AZ86SKI wrote:




Looking at your picture above with the #1 plug wire marked by the piece of paper and working my way around the cap counterclockwise, i can't come up with what looks like the right firing order based on which 4 wires are going to one side of the engine and which 4 go to the other side.

It might have something to do with the hallucinogenic mushroom pizza I had for supper, then again maybe the order just ain't right Wink

Those mushrooms are still affecting me but it sorta looks like #3 and #5 plug wires are swapped

That might make your engine a V6 or maybe V5 1/2 with the low compression on #7.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2022 at 7:04pm
Are you sure your DUI has a good ground and is getting at least 12 volts to the red wire?

Do you have a copy of the instructions that go with the DUI? If not, you can download it from the Performance Distributors website. It contains some good troubleshooting information. The unit is probably fine, but you may want to double check...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2022 at 5:34pm
For clarification in checking TDC, with the #1 spark plug out (closest to the driver's seat). I then rotated the engine by hand CCW with my finger over the the spark plug hole until the pressure began to build. Watched the exhaust valve open then close then intake valve open then close. Then I inserted a long thin ratchet extension into the the same cylinder until it touched the top of the piston. I then continued to rotate the engine until the rachet extension stopped rising to TDC. I then looked at the timing marker which was in-line with the TDC mark on the timing tape on the dampener. I then also checked that the rotor in the distributor was pointing at the #1 wire position. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2022 at 12:37pm
You mentioned a couple posts ago about confirming TDC at #1 because the rotor pointed to #1 wire...
Forget the wire. 
When confirming TDC #1 with valves closed, look at the timing pointer and the marks on the dampener. 
The position of the #1 wire on the distributor could in fact be part of the problems....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2022 at 12:11pm
I haven't tried to start it since it returned from this last shop. With the "slipped timing tooth theory" at the time I didn't want to damage anything.

The shop reported that it starts and runs on the trailer and advised they had set the initial timing at 10*. They stated when they gave it fuel it would die. They also reported a slight fluctuation and 13 psi of vacuum at idle. They could not find any vacuum leaks either. I have not confirmed any of this yet.

I inspected the cap since the rotor had to hit something to damage it. I didn't see anything but I will give it a very thorough inspection. I missed the damaged rotor before, so lesson learned on my part. 

I will get everything put back together this week (assuming the cap is good) and hopefully get it started and confirm timing and confirm exactly what is happening when I move the throttle off idle. 

Also for reference since this post is getting a bit lengthy, I believe this boat has had timing issues in the past since. The reason I say that is the previous distributor I pulled out was an automotive distributor. So the original distributor had already been replaced with the previous distributor or possibly others (I only know about the previous distributor). With only 400 hours that seemed a little odd to me but that is just a guess on my part. The previous distributor also had a chipped tooth on the gear. The chipped tooth is the other piece I found when I removed the old fuel pump. 

Thanks everyone for your input and patience. I'll let you know what I find when I fire it up...assuming of course that it starts. Big smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2022 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by AZ86SKI AZ86SKI wrote:

I am titling this post "BAD JU JU" which is also likely the new name of this boat.

I hope this post does not require me to turn in my CCF man card (assuming I have even earned one here yet), but after I was unable to find a solution to it not re-starting, it was time to take it to a professional shop. This is what they found...

1. The distributor gear had come off the distributor and was sitting down below. The roll pin holding it on was nowhere to be found. They reconnected the gear with a new roll pin. Anyone even heard or seen this before?

2. The rotor was damaged (broken plastic) on one side of the rotor head and the rotor head was slightly bent. I did post earlier that the rotor and cap appeared to be fine which likely led us astray. When I pulled the cap I didn't pull it all the way off as the wires were still attached and the side I was looking at was the non-broken side of the rotor head. They replaced it with a new rotor. 

3. While checking TDC with the valve covers off, they noticed that at TDC the intake valve at #1 was about halfway open. Which suggests that possibly the timing chain has slipped. Vacuum was also only at 13 PSI indicating possible incorrect/late valve timing (no vacuum leaks found). The engine now starts and idles but is failing with acceleration on the trailer. Also, the #7 cylinder with the new lower compression after the stall appeared fine from the top side. 

So it was decision time on how far to go at the shop. I decided to bring it back home and reassess at this point. I am obviously disappointed that all of these problems keep arising on an engine with low hours, but at least some problems have been identified. The noise when it died could have been either the gear coming off or chain slipping, or both. I guess it's possible that the chain had already slipped or was installed wrong causing lack of power issues in the first place, then the gear came off making the noise when it died? 

My initial thoughts are to tackle removing everything up front and working my way to the timing chain to verify if in fact the timing marks are lined up (or not lined up) as they should be at TDC. How difficult will this job be and any tricks to making the job easier? Does the oil pan need to be loosened or removed to accomplish this task?

Again, I want to thank everyone for their input on this now lengthy post, I do appreciate it. Any thoughts or suggestions on the path forward would be appreciated.



Going back to your after-the-shop post ... You said it starts and idles but is failing with acceleration on the trailer.  You don't mention (unless I missed it) what they found for timing at idle when running.  Was it verified?  The rotor was broken and replaced, but they didn't replace the cap.  Did you inspect the cap carefully for cracks?  It would be interesting to hear from you exactly what happens as you move the throttle off of idle, does it stumble immediately, can you coax it up to over 1,000 rpm and then it stalls?

I'm just trying to think about the basics.  I think we've kind of decided that fuel delivery is ok, you've verified valves are not sticking, that leaves ignition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2022 at 4:35pm
By "run" I meant run correctly.

This situation has turned into a real tarbaby and I feel bad for him.

But I have confidence you can guide him to a successful resolution if he stays with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2022 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by uncle-buck uncle-buck wrote:

MourningWood's solution of a hardened roll pin on the distributor gear sounds good.

Seems like the engine should now start and run. 
Are you getting a good 12 volts to the DUI?

Umm Buck................his engine runs again,doesn't run right,  backtrack a little with your reading  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2022 at 12:53pm
MourningWood's solution of a hardened roll pin on the distributor gear sounds good.

Seems like the engine should now start and run. 
Are you getting a good 12 volts to the DUI?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2022 at 12:24pm
I removed the valve covers and checked the #1 valves at TDC on the compression stroke and both valves were in fact closed as you can see below. In rotating the engine CCW I observed the exhaust valve open then close, the intake valve open then close and both remained closed at TDC. Not sure what the shop was looking at but they are both closed at TDC. Thank you for the guidance on helping me confirm this for myself.

I then checked the remaining cylinders and watched the valves open and close. I'm not sure that I did it correctly for TDC for each cylinder but all of the valves opened and closed the same as #1. All the valves appear functioning the same and damage free. All of the valves looked identical to the #1 valves in the photo below. I did not find any loose springs, they were all tight with no play at all, even when closed.

Anything else I should check while everything is apart? Thanks everyone.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2022 at 11:58am
Originally posted by AZ86SKI AZ86SKI wrote:

Thanks fellas. Your feedback makes perfect sense that if the intake valve was halfway open at TDC it wouldn't have enough compression to run and my compression test on number 1 was fine. So, I am more confused on that issue now as well.

A compression test is all mechanical and unaffected by timing, right or wrong.

Twice (with a Ford 302) I've had the distributor gear roll-pin break. The gear had just enough interference fit to time the engine accurately. Halfway through second lap the engine lost power and eventually died. (gear moved slightly). Re-time, re-fail. 

It doesn't matter where the gear is rotationally, just the depth on the shaft to engage the cam gear correctly. (and provide freeplay). 

The solution was a hardened roll pin. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2022 at 2:45am
If you have compression and #1 is getting spark at TDC for #1 the engine should run fine.  The fact that you have compression, even 90 PSI says both valves are closed at the perfect time.
Have you been able to start it yet after the shop visit.   A cam shaft going flat could reduce or even eliminate a valve opening as it should but the valve would not hang open.
A stuck valve could hang a valve open.   The most common cause I witnessed causing valves to stick is running an engine on OLD gasoline.  Old being 9 mos or older.  The older it is the more trouble it can cause.  Old gas can shellac the piston head and the vavle stems making them stick in the valve guides.   Only cure is to tear down and clean the parts up removing the sticky old gas mess.   Flat camshafts are not quiet, the valves get noisy as the lobe goes flat, I don’t think you mentioned any odd running noises, clacking or tapping noises.  Having 90 PSI in just one cylinder might foul out a plug after many hours of use but would be mostly not noticed and the engine would run fine till the plug fouled out.
My guess is either you have a valve sticking or your shop gave you poor advice about the valve being stuck open.  Maybe another cylinder is stuck open not #1?   The advice to pull the vavle covers and check the rocker arms and push rods is good.   You just have to check each cylinder on compression stroke at TDC for that cylinder.   Start with #1, then rotate the engine by hand 90* and check each cylinder in order of the fire order one after the other.  90* turn to reach each cylinder TDC.   In your 4 stroke engine it takes 2 full revolutions to check all 8 cylinders.   At TDC on compression stroke you will find each rocker arm tight with not much play but just a hair of wiggle in them.  If you find one moving a lot up and down with gentle pressure at TDC you found a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2022 at 6:51pm
Yes! Small victory on the timing chain issue! I'll take any victory at this point. 

Great advice on removing the valve covers and verifying myself what is going on with the valves as you suggest. Valves are new territory for me but time to learn and confirm. I should also note that there is/was what appeared some red silicone/sealant under the valve covers and manifold (but not where the heads meet the block) which may indicate that someone prior had been in at least those areas previously. The last shop removed it and replaced it with the proper gaskets under the valve covers. Just FYI if that seems important moving forward.

I will remove the valve cover for #1 and and rotate the engine and let you know what I find. Thanks!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2022 at 6:33pm
Short answer..............no timing chain problem Wink

Being a 351 Commander it's easy to remove a valve cover without any exhaust manifold interference, so I think you should hopefully verify for yourself that the #1 valves are both closed at TDC on the compression stroke and that the intake isn't half open.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2022 at 5:15pm
Well, my curiosity got the best of me and I decided to tackle these items today. 

At TDC on the compression stroke the rotor was in fact pointing to the number 1 wire position (just now in new location) and the firing order was correct the rest of the way around counterclockwise. The advance also moved freely. So we should be good there.

I removed the plugs and belts and rotated the engine by hand. The rotor (assuming same as dizzy) seemed to move smoothly. When I paused and reversed the rotation there was maybe about a 1/4" to 3/8" of play before it rotated the other direction. I also measured it in degrees of timing on the timing tape and it was about 5 to 6 degrees, which is likely more accurate than my guess, before it engaged again going the other way. Since this is my first time doing this, any thoughts on these findings?

The motor also shows 409 hours for reference. Thanks 


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AZ86SKI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2022 at 3:12pm
Thanks fellas! I really appreciate it. I will check TDC at #1 again and make sure it looks correct and verify the firing order. If so, then I will move on to Uncle Buck's advice on checking the timing chain without removing the timing cover. It may take me a few days to get to the timing chain check done but I will let you guys know what I find. Thanks again.
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