Ignition timing - odd behavior |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: July-26-2018 at 8:21am |
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Well, too early to crack open the champagne... but - pulled my carb to take a look and found some fuel in places it should be! so, if gas is leaking out I'm sure there was air getting in. going to try a gasket tomorrow, depends on what I can get locally (or I'll order from natique parts and be patient for a few days...
|
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Funny that you mention that. I had a conversation with Gary and that's something that came up, it was rebuilt a couple years ago, but that doesn't mean much, a lot can happen in a couple years of sitting or use.. He gonna look at the rest of the ignition system first like the coil and also bypass his ballast resistor since it's got electronic. ignition It does seem that he's done a very good job of verifying things as far as the timing. One of those little voices keeps saying vacuum leak vacuum leak (like a carburetor base gasket) and the higher rpm,s from the advanced timing let it start and run He'll know his engine pretty well when this is over |
|
MechGaT
Senior Member Joined: March-09-2015 Location: Chattanooga Status: Offline Points: 271 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The engine will run at the correct timing, but it won’t start there. It will start with more advance and idles fast. Maybe you said and I missed it, but what’s the condition of your carburetor? When was it last rebuilt? We have been pretty far down the timing route, maybe it is like Ken frequently says “when you think it is ignition, look at the fuel.”
|
|
'92 Sport Nautique
|
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
That is a wise and logical idea. The one guy I could find to rebuild the engine would only work with the long block. I tore it down to that point, and got it to his shop. He said he only does the machinist work. And, I regret having this guy work on it at all (difficult to work with, communication, etc.). I have attempted to get some info from him, but unsuccessful. I'm open to have a trainer pro help, but it won't be that person.
|
|
SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Going back to original post, did you have a shop assemble the engine?
If so why not have them figure this out? Wouldn't it be worth a hundie? |
|
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I wanted to check the firing rotation which plugs were out. So, starting from TDC (where piston #1 is at TDC), I rotated the crank shaft 1/4 turn (8 times) and checked to see which piston was at TDC. I got the following:
0/4: 1 and 6 1/4 : 2 and 8 2/4: 4 and 7 3/4: 3 and 5 So, I conclude that this is aligned with the engine firing order, by working top to bottom and alternating left and right: 1 - 8 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 2 - 7 - 3 Eliminates the possibility of having the wrong cam shaft (I think).... |
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Resistor picture as is:
|
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
ok, so I was also having difficulty believing I was 180 out. I repeated the exercise with an assistant (yes, my wife) and I pulled all the plugs to make life easier. I think I was confusing a suction with a positive air pressure. So, with a helper we definitively found the compression cycle. once I had that, continued to 0-degree mark and I'm confident this is the correct TDC position. Checked rotor... it is pointing to distr cap contact for #1 plug.
So, after a bunch of diagnostic work - I am back to exactly where I was at the start. I haven't changed the distributor position at all. I'm convinced that I had correct initial timing position from the beginning. Don't have time to try it tonight, but I have no reason to believe anything is different from what I had initial posting a few days back. ??? |
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
It would take more than a miracle to make it run timed 180 out There have to be some missing items in his timeline, such as when he took the distributor partially apart, did he take off the advance plate? If he did it's easy to put it back on 180 out and then your timing is ..................180 out. I'm not sure he's tried to start it since then Then again there is the TRBenj half miracle that we won't mention here, yet anyways |
|
SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
No cam/lifter pressure on pushrod means valves are closed. Sounds like you just need to reset you plug wires & you should be good to go. I think it is a miracle it ran at all, with plug wires 180 off! |
|
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
A quote from Gary K earlier in the thread |
|
Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
No your right just assumed 😳 and you know how that goes.
|
|
GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Have we yet determined that Gary has not misconstrued the #1 cyllinder on a Ford, like some others have?
|
|
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
|
Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I think your over thinking this....
What you could do pull all your wires off the cap. then where your rotor is pointing to is where the number one sparkplug wires goes to. Then follow your firing order and connect up the rest of the wires. Or the possibly more difficult way would be to pull the distributor out turn the rotor shaft to where you want it and drop it back in. Then again where the rotor points to is where number one cylinder plugwire connects Problem here for the inexperienced is sometimes the oil pump drive shaft,which seats into the bottom of the distributor shaft,does not line up easily and fights you as you try to seat the distributor into place. |
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I'm loosing my mind. After compression cycle starts (per thumb test), I rotate CCW until 0-degree mark. At this point, my rotor is points AWAY from #1 plug contact on distr cap. So, seems like I am 180 degrees off??? #1 piston is at top of it's cycle.
Is there a full-proof way to know what is happening with valves (open/close)? At this position (TDC), I see that #3 intake valve is stiff and #4 exhaust valve is stiff (stiff as in locked in a position). Both of the #1 valves are not stiff (I can wiggle the rocker arm). I believe that both of #1 valves should be closed at TDC - right? |
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Sounds like a plan |
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Never mind.... I'm twisted up on valve being open/close. I need to look at it fresh tomorrow and check the rotor position as well....
|
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
wait a second... don't I have a big problem if both valves are not closed when #1 piston is at TDC???
|
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Yes, #1 piston is at TDC...depth to piston through spark plug hole is 1+1/4 inches, and that is as close to top as I could measure. Darn, I got busy with valve cover, forgot to check rotor. I'll check that tomorrow (too tired, too dark).
After removing valve cover... got what I guess I expected. Intake valve #1 is closed when pointer mark is on the masking tape which is 1/3 rotation past 0 degree mark. You can see masking tape mark in picture #2. |
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
When you took this picture was #1 piston at TDC? Was the rotor pointing at the #1 plug wire terminal in the distributor cap? |
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Pictures....
|
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
First I'll add some comments, then two pictures. When engine is at 0 degree mark: I get a measurement of ~ 1.25 inches to the #1 piston. If I rotate 180 degrees, I measure 5.75 inches. I believe this is as expected. When I rotate crank shaft CCW, I get air pressure about 2/3 of a rotation before 0 degree mark. I can feel air pressure/leakage over a range of 45 degrees (I think). Depth to #1 piston is 4.75 inches.
First picture is HB scale when at 0 degree mark. I recently made the silver marks. The one yellow mark has always been there (since I owned the boat) at 12 degrees BTDC. In the second picture, I rotated a bit to show a piece of masking tape (near bottom of HB) which is where I get air pressure on plug #1. As you can see, it is ~1/3 rotation after 0 degrees or 2/3 rotation before. I'm working on valve covers next, might be difficult to get to this evening... Comments? |
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks for all the useful comments/ideas. Yes, I have a Pert Ignitor (black). I will upload some pictures this evening (if my rain stops here).
Harmonic balancer and pointer are original (at least, I know they weren't changed in the recent re-build). I will pull the valve cover and find position where plug #1 valves are closed. I also have a dial caliper with a depth measurement so I should be able to accurately find the top of piston cycle (if I need to be precise).. I'm going to assume that this (with the thumb/air pressure) will let me find TDC. I'll take pictures, and mark this position on harmonic balancer. |
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The best picture would be with #1 at TDC then you take the picture of the pointer/balancer
|
|
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I would pull on this thread a bit more. Ford used a few different pointer locations so if the balancer was replaced during the rebuild with one that mismatched your zero timing mark with your pointer location, that would have the effect you describe. Confirming the actual location of TDC with a piston stop would be a good idea. You aren’t 180 off if you have the correct firing order and the engine starts, FYI. |
|
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10753 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I may have hit on nothing with that question. Don't feel nervous yet. Using the thumb over the hole method, you feel slight air escaping on the whole compression stroke and if you had air escaping for the last 1/3 of rotation sounds right. Using the thumb method all it really tells you is that with the air escaping you're on the compression stroke and you stop turning the engine when the pointer is at 0 on the balancer. In other words your thumb tells you that you're on the compression stroke, and in no way can you use your thumb to know you're at TDC without looking at the timing marks, or the valves like mentioned a post or 2 back or the distributor rotor. This assumes everything is correct, like the timing chain was put on correctly.with the timing marks on the cam gear and camshaft gear properly lined up. If you mark the distributor housing where your #1 terminal is on the cap, and do the thumb test with the cap off, you should see the rotor pointing to that mark when your pointer is aimed at 0 on the balancer. How about a picture of the pointer/balancer? I seem to remember reading that you have an electronic conversion, what kind is it? If it's a Pertronix is it the Ignitor (black module) or Ignitor 2 (red module)? |
|
MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 891 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Here's another thing you can do to double check...remove the starboard side valve cover, and watch the cylinder #1 valves as you manually rotate the engine (the correct direction). When you see the intake valve close, the next time the piston is at the top of cylinder (firing position). you're at TDC #1 firing position. some folks then make a mark on the damper at the timing pointer. (which hopefully indicates "TDC" or "O". on the damper).
|
|
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
|
garykocis
Groupie Joined: August-15-2009 Status: Offline Points: 66 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
just thinking through this process.... IF something is not aligned as it normally would be, then can I find which spark plug is on compression cycle when HB is at 0 degrees, and align the rotor to point at the corresponding contact in the distributor cap? or, is it more complicated than this....? then, set timing using that spark plug wire (instead of #1).
|
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |