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No start, searched, accel pump?

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    Posted: May-23-2007 at 9:41am
Man, I've seen some starters cause really weird issues.
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JR_VIC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2007 at 11:17pm
Back in 1998 I started having starting problems with my 92 351W SNCB. It was turning over fairly fast and was easy to start cold and then once it got hot it was diffucult to start and sometimes would backfire. I was told to get a new starter because the Pro-Tech needed alot of energy to make the engine fire over and if the starter was bad it would draw too many amps therefore hurting the Pro-Tech ignition. I was doubtful but bought a new starter and the boat fired right up all the time...I was amazed but it fixed the problem. Maybe it was just a weird Pro Tech issue.

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2007 at 9:42pm
New starter did the trick, fired right up, guess i didnt need that mechanic after all. Thanks everyone for the help
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2007 at 7:25pm
Ok, checked the firing order again, even painted the numbers on each wire with white out and the wires are in the right order. I'm just hoping the starter is and has been the culprit of my starting problems since the beginning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2007 at 7:11pm
Ok site was down yesterday for me, so i'm back today. When i clicked your link joe i was like thinking that i've been using the wrong firing order the whole time. But nope, i've been using the right one 18456273. Anyways for you guys not thinking it was the starter, i took the starter to a rebuild shop yesterday. The guy tried to jump it for 2 seconds and it was turning slow and got extremely hot. He pulled it apart today and he said some part (cant remember) was broke inside and the starter was shorting out badly, he said it's not even re-buildable. He told me to buy a new one online b/c it's probably cheaper than his cost. So i'm guessing the short was pulling a lot of power away from the rest of the electrical system including the coil. I said before how the coil didnt really have a strong spark like the stock coil on my car. So i'm ordering a new starter and ill let you guys know how it goes from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2007 at 5:59am
they are both good carbs, it was a personal preference thing, it was kinda of ironic on how brand new out of the box i d*cked with that edelbrock for 6 months not thinking it was the carb and slapped the holley on and it was a entirely different engine, and had the same problem on a boat.
this guy needs a good set of eyes to look at whats going on with this thing, something very simple is being overlooked, and you need to start from the begining such as a compression test, then the gear timing, a wore out distributor bushing will cause a hard start problem, it could be anything and i think its time he takes it to a mechanic to get another set of eyes to look at it because diagnosing this thing without being there is close to impossible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 64 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2007 at 4:17pm
I don't believe the starter theory of rotating too slowly. By design, some of the old 40's engines rotated very slow, but if tuned correctly they started right up. And they had old style coils, plugs etc. Ever kick start a Harley. Kicking faster doesn't start the engine....proper timing and fuel make it start.

Not wanting to start a debate, but Edelbrock vs Holley is not his problem either. Both are fantastic carbs. I have both and am in means an expert and can make both work. Save your money and keep troubleshooting. You poured gas into the engine and it wouldn't fire so don't start looking into a fuel problem.

So you elimanated fuel as the problem. You say that the plugs have spark. So it must be the timing which could also be off if you ran the wires incorrectly.

How did you line the dots up when you istalled the new timing gear?

Does your starter just go dead or does the engine rotate? Are you sure the timing gear problem hasn't wiped out your cam?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2007 at 2:18pm
Joe,
I just hope thats his problem so he can get this crap behind him and use the boat again. Without having the boat in front of me I'm out of ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2007 at 1:51pm
Nice clarification alan, his firing order should be 18456273, the diagram I linked I to I was citing for cylinder numbering and rotation of the distributor which are the same for both L and R hand engines. I have have made both the numbering and rotor rotation direct mistakes before, damn fords number different, have number one in the wrong spot, and turn the distributor cap the wrong way... I will never figure out how I ended up with 5 v8 fords in my motor pool something went terribly wrong somewhere...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2007 at 9:54am
Wannabe,

Joes post made me wonder if your using the wrong firing order.

I believe your engine s/b CCW rotation and the firing order is 18456273 not like the link in Joes post correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2007 at 9:29am
The starter not spinning fast enough is never the reason a well timed engine barely needs a bump to start

if your getting a steady stream of gas out of your accelerator pump now then the edelbrock is working more than enough to get that bad boy firing.

You have spark, you have gas, as chris is getting a little frustrated about there are only two other things that could be the problem, one is compression which I would check but is not likely and the most obvious thing is improper timing or my favorite mistake the spark plug wires routed incorrectly.

I have made every mistake possible in the past in routing spark plug wires and every time I was sure they were right, every time I changed a bunch of stuff that worked fine, and every time when I finally got it right I couldnt believe how easy it was to get an engine to start. Check here
and make sure, pay close attention to the rotation and numbering and once its right dont be afraid to rotate that cap a bit. Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2007 at 9:03am
Pulled the #1 plug and cranked the motor to find the compression stroke, then put the motor at TDC on the compression stroke using the mark i made on the balacer when i had the dots lined up. I opened the cover and both valves were closed. I put a screw driver into the plug hole and felt the piston so it's at or near TDC. I opened the cap and the rotor is pointing at the #1 tower where i put it when I had the dots lined up. I even cranked the motor over to make sure the valves were opening and closing and they were. I'm at a loss, the only thing i can think of is the starter is not spinning fast enough to fire the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-10-2007 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by 81nautique 81nautique wrote:

79,

Is it time to pull #1 plug and check to see if when the piston is at TDC the valves are actually closed? I've been thinking thats the problem all along and you cautioned about this a few months ago when the chain was being installed. I think that would be my next step, only takes a few minutes and atleast you'll eliminate the question.
Going to check tomorrow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-10-2007 at 7:14am
79,

Is it time to pull #1 plug and check to see if when the piston is at TDC the valves are actually closed? I've been thinking thats the problem all along and you cautioned about this a few months ago when the chain was being installed. I think that would be my next step, only takes a few minutes and atleast you'll eliminate the question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by wannabeSS wannabeSS wrote:

But I have a question, if the motor was not at TDC when I had the dots lined up, then something is not right/broken with the gears/cam/crank correct?


depends if you where on the compression stroke or not with the crank when it was at TDC and also if you installed the gear on the end of the cam correctly. Some gears have different offsets for the timing and if you didn't read the instructions then you who knows. Don't bye it's the carb, then again alot of guys have know clue how to adjust a Q-jet to start with which is what a edelbrock carb is basicly takes a little more skill but once it's set you really don't have to mess with it unlike a holley carb which is easy to adjust but requires frequent adjustments over time.

and since it turns freely until it fires then seems to slow down the carb's not going to cause that but a timing chain installed incorrectly will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

do your self a favor and invest in a Holley, go through and check out everything 79 is telling you too.
Every Edelbrock carb Ive had in the past always had starting issues... always had to crank the sh*t out of them. it maybe a coincidence with the starting problem, but Ive ran into this twice in the past and the last time i had a Holley 780 laying around and i threw a rebuild kit in it and bolted it on, it fired the car everytime with no more than 2 revolutions
Yea, that's the only reason why I'm thinking it's not something I did in the timing chain change since it's ALWAYS had starting issues. I think sitting for the past 4 months has made the issue even more prevalent. But I have a question, if the motor was not at TDC when I had the dots lined up, then something is not right/broken with the gears/cam/crank correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 9:33pm
do your self a favor and invest in a Holley, go through and check out everything 79 is telling you too.
Every Edelbrock carb Ive had in the past always had starting issues... always had to crank the sh*t out of them. it maybe a coincidence with the starting problem, but Ive ran into this twice in the past and the last time i had a Holley 780 laying around and i threw a rebuild kit in it and bolted it on, it fired the car everytime with no more than 2 revolutions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 5:41pm
makes no difference on what model or brand carb it is, it's starting sound like you didn't install the timing chain correctly and didn't verify that the number one cyl was on top dead center before you started theres a whole lot more to it than just lining up the dots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 5:37pm
Ok I looked all over the carb and cant find a model number. I did however look at edelbrock's site and my carb looks exactly like the performer marine carb, the problem is, i dont know if it's the 750 or 600.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

..
The carb is not stock, it's an edelbrock, i need to look at the model number, but i'm wondering if it is even adjusted correctly. Like i said, when i first hit the key it spins fast and the motor almost starts, then it spins slow again. I dont want to put a jumper on it after reading that the extra amps might kill the ign module. I used to start the boat everytime with a jumper because it would take so long to get it to run, but i put a new ign module so i dont wanna risk it. I will try having my dad start the boat while i play with the dist and throttle. Yea i checked the firing order atleast 5 times because i kept second guessing myself, but it's fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 3:25pm
well it will help if you can have someone else crank while your rotating the dist slowly until it fires and stays running you'll also want to have the throtle cable disconnected so you can run it with one hand and rotate the dist with the other to keep it going double check the firing order just incase you have some wires crossed ccw at the cap. also you will only need to rotate the dist maybe 5-10 degrees and don't have the clamp to loose just loose enough to rotate but still stay put once you let go.

you can go too far with the dist so just because it spins faster doesn't mean it's where it should go. you may have it advanced to much and need to back it off a little. just don't crank it for ever and give the battery a break. two full pumps on the throtle then crank but only the first time. another trick is to just screw down the idle screw so it's high to get the motor going then you can get the timing light out and dial it in to where it needs to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

it will crank faster once you get the timing closer, all you have to do is rotate the dist very slightly one direction or the other, one way it will slow down more the other it will speed up. But if you have old crappy plugs, cap, rotor or wire that's not going to help and make it even worse.

like a said before get some old school mechanic that can tune carb'd motor's as well as a FI motor and it will be fixed in about 5 minutes.
I have it on that one spot that makes it crank faster, but it will only do it for a second, it fires then dies, then cranks slow again. That's why I think the starter is just getting hot and not wanting to cooperate. The cap/rotor/plugs are all new and the wires are a year old but in good shape, no arcing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2007 at 10:03am
it will crank faster once you get the timing closer, all you have to do is rotate the dist very slightly one direction or the other, one way it will slow down more the other it will speed up. But if you have old crappy plugs, cap, rotor or wire that's not going to help and make it even worse.

like a said before get some old school mechanic that can tune carb'd motor's as well as a FI motor and it will be fixed in about 5 minutes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2007 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

....
First of all my car is FI, this is my FIRST time playing with a carb motor at all. Second, I adjust my timing with a laptop, I have never used a timing light wiht harmonic balancer marks to make sure my timing is correct. Back to the boat; I have the motor wanting to fire when I first crank it, but then it wont after that. I have a brand new optima blue top battery but, I think the motor is just not turning fast enough. I cleaned up the block ground and replaced the connector with a new copper one. I'm going to clean up the starter connection and go from there. I think if i can get a faster rotation it will fire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2007 at 9:52pm
old boy has been at it a while offer a lot of help, and now just getting to replacing the stuff that should have been replaced and check long ago, keeps saying has no problem fixing his hot rod but the boat's kicking his butt please just because the motor rotates the other way means nothing you still do the same stuff to fix it, worried about applying tape to get the timing right should be able to do it with out a timing light to start with just sounds like he's pissing in the wind and it's time to step back and let someone else take over, then again maybe it's a little tougher than just lining up the dots on the timing gears. Besides think this about the third thread he's started trying to get it going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6strings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2007 at 9:21pm
Nice encouraging words there, 79. The guy is asking for help. You know the old adage "if you can't say anything nice......"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2007 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

think it's about time you paid someone to fix your boat, your really have some trouble on some basic stuff.
You're kidding me right? Nothing is going right with this damn boat. I built my car from the ground up and run 10.50's in a car that I drive to school everyday. I dont know what I did to piss off the motor gods with this boat. It's not like I started off with a good starting boat to begin with, after the first couple months I had to play with it for 30 min before I went to the ramp to make sure it was going to start. On another note, I replaced the cap and rotor today, going to do the plugs tomorrow and give it another shot. And how should I orient the timing tape?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2007 at 11:26am
think it's about time you paid someone to fix your boat, your really have some trouble on some basic stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2007 at 9:16am
Ok I did some testing and the ignition module is fine. I have 12 volts at the coil. I pulled all the plugs and some had a little bit of green corrosion so i'm going to change them today and i'm going to change the cap and rotor. I have a question though, I bought some timing tape because my balancer is messed up. I need to know how to install it on this reverse rotation engine so I can time for BDC. This is the tape I bought
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-07-2007 at 6:34pm
Ok, update... I took the fuel pump out and moved it by hand and had fuel shooting out, so I reinstalled it and now I have fuel at the carb and fuel when I move the throttle. It seems as though the accel pump works fine because it's a steady stream. As I was trying to fire it again I moved the distributor slightly and it sounded like it wanted to start but couldnt. I tried going 180 and it didnt do anything, not even an effort to start, so I put it back the way I had it. Right now I'm trying to do some testing at the coil, I dont have 12 volts for some reason.
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