GT40 Issues after shop service. |
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97MasterEdition
Newbie Joined: February-25-2015 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Posted: February-25-2015 at 1:20pm |
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1997 SN 196 GT40
Long standing symptom/problem prier to and reason for servicing engine last week: Running warm up to 190 at idle after a few slalom passes. But in the pass would go down to 170s. Then climbing back to 190-5 after dropping skier and lining up for another pass. Back down during pass. Been like that for a while. Did all the usual; new thermostat and gasket, checked all hoses, checked trans cooler, checked all ports in thermostat housing, checked intake under hull and so on. All good. Conclusion; flow problem due to old manifolds (1100hrs). Plus old hull huger muffler was going bad..developed a crack. Other than temp issues and some needed maintenance, the boat ran smooth as butter. Strong, responsive and sounded normal. Sent to shop week ago and the following was done. The shop replaced manifolds and risers, plus some items added to the job for general maintenance. Specifics; 1. New Exhaust manifolds, risers, gaskets and ss fasteners (old ones were in fact bad.. I saw the inside of one of them) 2. New Hull hugger muffler 3. New exhaust hoses 4. Replaced fuel filter-FCC filter 5. Installed a new inline fuel filter. It did not have one before. 6. New thermostat/gasket 7. Oil change and filter 8. Transmission fluid changed 9. New cap and rotor 10. Cleaned flame arrester 11. Tank drained and 5 gal of fresh mid grade added. Shop chose to do this but gas in tank was not more then 2 weeks old and had full can of Seafoam added 12. Clean and grease rudder and rudder port 13. Shaft packing 14. Bilge cleaned Received boat back. Started and idled normal. Backed off of trailer. Short 100yrd run to dock done at idle speed; felt and sounded normal. Parked boat. Few hours later did a test ride. Seemed ok at first. Seemed to run as normal throughout power range and idle. But within a few minutes, idle started stuttering. The range between 1000-2000 as throttle was pushed up, it stuttered and struggled a great deal. Continue pushing throttle and at 2500rpms, it gave a mostly normal response on up to WOT. Some slight stutters detected but barely noticeable compared to the 1000-2000 range. Back down to 1200 still in gear, the boat started surging between 1500 and 2000. Up and down, up and down. Continued this until the throttle was repositioned. Idle still stuttering. Left boat sit for a couple hours, then second test ride. Seemed to run slightly better this time out but was repeating all of the same above symptoms after running for a bit. Day 2, added 10 more gal of mid grade gas and test ride results were exactly same. Cold it ran well until reaching normal temp. Then same poor results. At PCM’s suggestion, the following has been attempted or found to be normal when checked. After some but not all, a test ride was done with the exact same symptoms as above..no better, no worse. 1. Removed new in line fuel filter, as it was not part of the system before. (test ride..no change) 2. Both HP and LP pumps prime as normal with key turn. Aprox 3 seconds 3. LP pump tested with normal flow/volume (20oz in 10 sec) and pressure. All connections appeared normal and were reseated. (test ride..no change) 4. Fuel pressure gauge shows 35psi at idle and 41psi at WOT. No change during lake testing for both points. Also, fuel pressure held with key off @35psi. 5. FCC opened and full of fuel to the top. No water. All connections appeared normal, reassembled and psi did show again as normal with gauge at idle and WOT. (test ride..no change) 6. At idle removed vacuum hose from Fuel Pressure Reg on rail. PSI jumps to 41psi 830rpm when vacuum hose removed. Reattached hose and normal operations of psi at idle-35psi 730rpm and 41psi at WOT. (test ride..no change) All symptoms have stayed exactly the same for every test ride. Over several days of lake testing it seems that the issue arises when boat is up to temperature (160). Seems there are no issue when runing from a cold start and running up through the power band. 100% normal operation. Smooth as butter. Once boat is at temp, the issues at idle (stuttering) and between 1000 and 2000rms (struggling, running rough, losing power) are present. At 2500rpms it catches and runs close to if not normal through WOT. Thinking sensor problem… possibly temp sensor as it only runs poorly at temp. Or throttle position sensor as it runs the worst between 1000-2000rpms. But do not know how to test any of these. Not sure what other sensor it could be but the symptoms/problems are very very consistent. Cannot think of anything else it could be. The boat ran fine before entering the shop and poorly after. The shop did not lake test boat before repairs and I’m confident they did not hose test it. Problem described to them was just running warm and a few maintenance items needed so perhaps no need to hose or lake test. I would have had them address poor running if it was running poorly prior. Especially this bad. Temp issue was solved. They contend that it must have been running poorly before their work. It could be a complete coincidence and a separate isolated incident. Or maybe its something/parameter that they changed that is causing the computer to not properly calculate fuel needs. But just guessing. Perhaps something was bumped. Truly appreciate any help. |
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1997 Masters Green 196 GT40
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5697 |
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The boat is possibly running lean all the time but that is being masked by the extra fuel it gets before it gets up to temp. I would suspect an air leak based on the healthy fuel tests. Do a compression test on all cylinders - could be a valve issue from leaky manifolds if they were action rough enough shape to require replacement. Either way it's the shops fault til they prove it isnt.
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jhersey29
Senior Member Joined: February-20-2014 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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I had a similar stuttering issue and was related to cross talk between the TFI-IV module and the distributor wires. It wasn't heat related so not sure but it was so intermittent that it was hard to diagnose. I bought an intermittent ignition analyzer and every time I plugged that thing in the boat ran great. Unplug it and the boat stuttered. I thought it was the connector to the TFI-IV module not properly connecting to the module. The analyzer has much heavier duty connectors and pins. It turned out that when I plugged in the analyzer I was pulling the wires away from the distributor and that is why it ran fine on the analyzer. After replacing the connector 2 times(one from Napa(it was china junk) and one from Ford OEM(thicker connectors)) I finally realized what was going on. This drove me nuts and it took a bit to figure out. The solution was to either put the bonnet back on the distributor to prevent cross talk and/or move the wires farther away from the distributor. I did both and put some of that liquid electrical tape on the wires to the TFI-IV to help prevent any cross talk. Something to look at and just suggestions to help. Maybe they shifted the wires around just enough to cause cross talk when replacing the distributor cap. Also take off the distributor cap, check the rotor and cap make sure everything is good, wiggle the PIP sensor and make sure it isn't loose. Look for pieces of loose metal on the PIP and blow them off with an air compressor if you see anything. Maybe some metal flakes fell off the old distributor and rotor when they replaced them. The PIP is magnetic so the flakes would hang on to it.
Hope any of this helps. |
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Tim D
Grand Poobah Joined: August-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2636 |
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Have you checked the short fuel hose inside the FCC?
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Tim D
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Brian,
Welcome to CCfan. Sorry to hear about your problems. They can frustrating especially for a mechanic. I'm sure we can give you some ideas. Was it a CC dealer that worked on the boat? What was this in line fuel filter they installed and then removed? How about some pictures as well as a diary entry? |
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97MasterEdition
Newbie Joined: February-25-2015 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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The short fuel hose was checked..it was fine along with the connections. The whole FCC system looked good. I have a gear head helping me. I'll leave the shop out of this as I stated this could be a completely isolated incident and the work they preformed was fine. But I felt all details and time line should be laid out incase something clicked with someone or it triggered a thought. I'll work on the diary and pics when I get a chance. Truly appreciate the help. I'm sure it will get sorted out and probably something simple..I hope. But it is a consistent bugger. I'm almost glad it's not intermittent.
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1997 Masters Green 196 GT40
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Tim D
Grand Poobah Joined: August-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2636 |
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With a distributor cap change, did you verify the plug wires are right?
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Tim D
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Would not run good cold then. Could possibly be a bad ignition wire that opens as it warms up---
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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Has the dealer tried a code reader to see if there is any stored codes ?
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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97MasterEdition
Newbie Joined: February-25-2015 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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as to the code reader, to my knowledge the shop did not test it with a code reader. In my opinion they had no reason to as it was not suggested that it ran poorly as described. Even with somewhat warm running tempts it ran good for an older boat with lots of hours. That problem is completely resolved and it's nice to see it hold good temps. That was the reason it went to the shop in the first place so they did well. All that they worked on was done well as far as I can tell. But as stated before, the more details and timelines I can provide, I would assume helps you guys shuffle through some possibilities. Thanks again.
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1997 Masters Green 196 GT40
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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The new distributor cap could be bad maybe? It wouldn't be the first time.
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lewy2001
Grand Poobah Joined: March-19-2008 Location: NSW Australia Status: Offline Points: 2234 |
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It may be a different problem altogether and be pure coincidence but if my car went in for repair and was returned with a different problem I would be expecting them to rectify it. Or an explanation of what is causing the problem and how it is unrelated to original repair.
The code reader if it provides a stored code such as a sensor error will provide you with a starting point to trouble shoot the problem. It may not have any stored codes but if it does identify a sensor out of range it will make repairing simple. It could be a leaning out problem once the warmup enrichment fuel is removed as JoeinNY mentioned. Possible ACT or ECT sensor problem. There is information in GT40 manual (in the reference section) to measure the resistance and voltage output from these sensors at different temperatures. But do not rule out the simple things first like Brian and Gary have mentioned cap leads etc. |
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If you're going through hell, keep going
89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
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Tim D
Grand Poobah Joined: August-23-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2636 |
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If it was running rough from too lean fuel mixture, wouldn't the spark plugs show that?
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Tim D
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97MasterEdition
Newbie Joined: February-25-2015 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Thank you, I will look into a code reader. I do not believe the GT40 stores information as you say. I do believe the appropriate tester will run the motor through some diagnostics and gives a 2 digit code to cross reference. And as you say, may easily point to a faulty sensor. If one is not to terribly expensive, I may buy on for this and future use. Anyone know what type and more importantly where they can purchased?
Interesting on the distributer cap. I've purchased bad parts for automotive use. It happens. |
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1997 Masters Green 196 GT40
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Here is the one Mark (lewy2001) has recommended in the past,he was finding them on amazon so look there too. I think a extension cable was handy too if I remember right.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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But, I'm still confused with the in line fuel filter they installed and then removed per PCM's recommendation. Again, what filter was it? |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Pete, it was probably something like this. These are sometimes installed halfway along the line between the fuel tank and the motor. I get to mine by removing the floor panel behind the motor box. For me, it's the only filter I have, but they are sometimes installed in tandem with the Fuel Control Cell filter... and sometimes not from what I've read. It's actually odd for a Carb'd boat to have them, but it's how mine came. If it wasn't there before, it would probably just add extra flow resistance. And of course, it's only meant to mount one way (there's an arrow for the direction of flow). But physically, it can be installed in either direction and hence gives an opportunity for human error. Maybe the shop was thinking they were adding extra protection by adding it in there: |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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My guess Pete it would be something like this. My 95 first year EFI without FCC has one very similar mounted within a foot of the fuel pump
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Great minds think alike
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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97MasterEdition
Newbie Joined: February-25-2015 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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That is what was installed and where it was installed (under floor board). I removed it a a check to see if that could be the cause. It was not. No difference in the way the motor acted without it in place. Will probably put it back. And I have seen photos of the same SN but a yr or two newer with that exact one already installed so it was something I believe CC started doing as standard equipment.
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1997 Masters Green 196 GT40
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