'97 Ski restoration - a few issues! |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: June-10-2017 at 8:35pm |
Hi all,
Masters Edition 97 restoration nearly finished; hope to get it in the water next week. A few small queries. 1st, even when warm, the engine still needs a bit of throttle to start then it will idle fine when you throttle back. I thought that when warm they should start on the turn of the key with the lever at idle. Wondered about choke adjustment but shouldn't be that when engine is warm surely. Any ideas folks? Eng is 285hp HO carb 351W. Maybe idle set too slow? (can't tell speed due to issue No 3 - see below!) Mixture screws? 2nd. We've had the tank out and now fuel gauge has no indications but worked before.. Any suggestions for what I have dislodged or forgotten to reconnect properly? Duff sender? 3rd Tacho has some power (though maybe poor) as needle flicks sometimes but no indications. What should I look at first for this? Bad earth? Boat has Perfect Pass in case that makes a difference. N§ew coil fitted. 4th Not a problem as such - Screen aluminium surround needs painting so going to remove screen and get frame painted but am sh*tting myself about breaking the glass. Any advice on how to avoid that catastrophe would be very welcome!!! Many thanks guys! Calum |
|
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Calum,
On the fuel gauge, make sure the tank is grounded. It's the ground source for the gauge. When you reinstalled the tank, maybe you forgot to connect the ground wire? |
|
Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Go to the back of the tach,you should find a 3 position switch. Turn that several times and try it.That is a switch that changes the tach to work on 4-6-8 cylinders and seems to get dirty contacts and then make a poor connection. Turning it cleans the contacts
|
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Great! What would I do without CCFan?
Cheers guys, will try both of those today. Where does the tank earth usually attach? |
|
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
There should be a ground wire typically from the engine block back there. Besides supplying a ground to the tank, it should also go to the aft navigation light and also grounding the fuel fill. |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I think we're getting somewhere! I am aware of some bad earth issues and have a busbar ready to go in but weird issues below seem to confirm earthing:
After turning the tach switch behind the instrument a few times, it indeed sprang into life though at "idle" (who knows what speed that is at present) it indicates 1400rpm. The Perfect Pass is earthed through the tach (great eh?) and the Perfect Pass now briefly lights up when the engine starts and also resets itself if you blip the horn (told you it was weird!) When it briefly comes to life, the PP indicates around 900rpm. 1400 is nonsense but 900 is possible - my ear isn't finely tuned enough to know what 650-700 sounds like. What is certain is that if I back off the curb idle screw, it will stall so it could be idling at the correct speed. Even when warm though, it won't start at idle unless you give it a small prime first. It will then start at idle, race slightly due to the prime then settle into an even idle. I have always thought it should start at idle without priming when warm? Cannot find an earth to the tank and the aft navigation light isn't wired up which could explain something though fuel gauge worked before. The anchor light i smissing so I'm not bothered about wiring it up, I just want rpm and a fuel gauge at the moment. There is no earth to the fuel fill and it isn't clear where an earth should attach to the tank though there is a small nut on a post sticking out of a metal plate on the top of the tank between the breather hose and the engine supply outlet. Is that it? I'll just run a new earth from filler to fuel tank to engine block once I figure out where to attach earth to tank. I did try earthing that post mentioned above but no movement on gauge so either there is something else wrong or I'm earthing the wrong thing! |
|
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
That post/stud on the tank should be the grounding point. You can confirm it with the VOM (volt Ohm meter) set on the Ohm scale. The other grounding location typical for the tank is one of the sender mounting screws or some senders even have a quick connect tab spot welded to the sender base plate
While you have the VOM out, check between the ground wire that's back under the aft deck and the engine block. You should get a near zero Ohm reading. Sounds like you need to clean up all the electric connections in the boat. Also, have you run any better + and - wiring up to the dash yet? |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Fuel sender fixed. Thanks Pete!
Tacho still screwy as is idle. Wires arrived yesterday so think the bus needs to go in before I chase my tail any longer. |
|
SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
For the warm start problem, it might be dripping fuel after shutdown. You might want to look down carb right after a shutdown to verify.
|
|
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
No dripping fuel from boosters on shutdown so doesn't seem like a needle valve issue. Established today that the choke isn't working so will check the voltage on that tomorrow then choke internals if voltage is ok.
Got the screen off, dismantled, stripped and undercoated all without breaking the glass thankfully but it wasn't easy getting the frame off the glass. Don't think it's been off since the boat left the factory! Hopefully get that back on tomorrow along with a ground busbar installed which I'm hoping will address a few issues. Also changed oil, filter and transmission fluid and did first pass on bow section with 3M super duty which, as everyone has been telling me, really is great stuff. Trying to get rubrail back on tomorrow but I'm probably being optimistic - trailer brakes need looking at too! |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks to all thos ewho recommended an earth busbar. That has solved a number of issues. Tacho seems to be working but can't be sure until monday. Horn now working fine, fuel gauge no longer fluctuating and Perfect Pass alarm issue seems to have been solved. A remaining bit of weirdness is that blipping the horn with the engine off resets the Perfect Pass, almost like a power interrupt. Will find out monday if the same happens with engine running.
Figured out why the choke isn't working - the bimetallic coil had become detached inside. I've glued it but still not convinced it is working though I'm not sure whether the coil should be tensioned one way or another before catching it on the tang. If I just put it on straight, rotating the choke cap has no effect on the choke plate position so something isn't right. Have got 10V at the cap so not sure what's going on there. Have ordered a new choke cap for next week. Voltemeter showing 11v with a new earth, shoudl I have been expecting 12v? Carb seems to have some issues which could be down to errors in my Dad rebuilding it. The idle is too high, closing the starboard mixture adjustment still allows the engine to run when I know that it should stall and when exceeding around 2200rpm in gear, the engine bogs down (too much or too little fuel) and won't recover until you back off the throttle opening. Seems to rev out of gear ok but haven't held sustained revs out of gear so not certain. Since the carb is way outside my comfort zone, I'm giving the boat to a marine engineer on monday. Figured I could chase my tail for weeks looking for the issues when he should get it sorted, along with timing check etc, pretty quickly and then we can start actually using the boat. Stern decals now reapplied, screen back on, rubrail back on, interior being reinstalled today, one side of hull buffed and polished and other side on the agenda for today or tomorrow. Gold pinstripe lines and 'Ski Nautique decals' going on tomorrow but don't want to rush them since they're $100 each! Will try to get some photos up in case anyone is interested. Also noticed that the hours meter counts with the ignition on rather than just with the engine running. Is this normal? if not, where should the feed to the hours meter come from? At the moment it is powered with the ignition switch. Not sure this is correct. |
|
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Yes hour meter is run by the ign feed.
You cannot judge the responsiveness of the idle circuit with the boat running at 2200, the carb is on the transition and mains by then. Anything that draws a decent amount of current (like the horn) has the potential to disrupt the perfect pass with the engine off... those electronics don't handle blips below 12v very well. |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The engine is idling at around 900rpm which is obviously too high. At that engine speed I think the idle circuit is bypassed isn't it? If I reduce the idle towards 700 it stalls at even at 900 it nearly stalls when putting it in gear. It is pretty clear that something isn't quite right somewhere and I'm pretty certain it is the carb but I am far from expert on these matters!
Thanks for the confirmation on the hours meter - wasn't sure about that. |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I know you guys love pictures so here's the boat (pretty much) finished. Many thanks to everyone who has offered advice, it is very much appreciated. I hope I can reciprocate as my knowledge level grows!
It is getting a final set up from a marine engineer as it needs the timing checked, Tachometer and Perfect Pass voltage issues sorted (earth busbar hasn't fixed them) and the mixture/idle carb problem troubleshooting. Boat needs stereo and speakers installing, hinge on ice locker reattached, hull waxed, pop up cleats installed (will disguise old tower mounting holes) and new engine cover net. Steering is a bit stiff so a new steering cable and a bimini top already planned for this winter. It's been a lot of work but very much worth it and I've learned loads. Having a resource like CCFan has been incredibly useful - thanks again! Calum |
|
Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Wow, really looks nice!
As far as your perfect pass voltage issues, you'll probably need to do a little more beefing besides just the ground (earth) busbar. You'll have to run a new ground wire from either your battery negative, or your engine block to the busbar. It's ok to keep the original ground in place. This should help things in general. For the Perfect Pass though, you'll want to also run (probably do this at the same time) a new red positive feed from the protected side of your breaker, to the input side of your ignition pushbutton on the dash. That will help a lot, but if it doesn't, you can do a busbar for the feed coming out of your ignition breaker and going into the input side of the other breakers and the key. |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
For the earth, I ran a new bigger cable to the engine block which is dedicated to the busbar. I hope trhat would solve it and while it has helped, it still isn't truly stable. Thanks for the live suggestions, that is next on the list now! No idea if that will help with the tacho though which has power but refuses to operate properly.
|
|
Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
If your Perfect Pass is the only thing giving your low voltage issues at this point, another way to handle that, which might be easier, is to give the PP its own relay.
This works by getting a power feed for the PP, directly off of the battery positive terminal for the switched power portion of the relay. Then, the ignition switch (or an accessory switch) just switches the relay, instead of having to power the PP. This takes the electrical load off the more delicate dash wiring. Joel explained this method here: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21539 |
|
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Calum,
It's good to see a great restoration over on the other side from us. Keep up the great work. |
|
SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Can't be the same boat as the 'before' pictures!
|
|
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
|
63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4248 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
That boat looks fantastic! Really impressed with what you've done with it.
|
|
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
|
|
fgroce
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2016 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 350 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Boat looks great, I know how much work it takes to get one all polished up.
Enjoy your boat. |
|
FGroce
88 Ski Nautique For 28 years Now 2002 Ski Nautique |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Hi all,
In the way that a house build is never truly finished, neither is the boat! Still have a few lingering issues from last year (and one or two new ones). I thought I'd post them here for the usual expert advice before I get stuck in! The Airguide speedo is literally filling up with water. The tube is blanked for the time being but I'm presuming the balance tube has gone. Does that sound right? Put in a relay for the PP but the display is still intermittent and even when operating, is faint and hard to read. A dedicated earth comes next but has anyone had a display go bad or the main module causing these issues with a display? The carb was rebuilt but not by an expert. I still can't get it right. It won't idle when cold despite a new electric choke (290 HO engine). When warm it idles nicely at 650rpm but will often stall when selecting idle or trying to accel past idle. Further, it bogs when accelerating out of the hole but picks up when the rpm increases/load decreases. New accel pump cam fitted, carb adjusted countless times, new plugs, leads, distributor checked. I'm on the verge of just ordering a freshly rebuilt 4160 or a Quick Fuel M-600 but have aniggling worry that it could be something else. Definitely seems like a fuelling issue to me though. Temp gauge quit recently. I gather that if I earth the sender wore to the block, the gauge should go to full defection. if it does then it';s the sender. If it doesn't then it's the gauge. Is this correct? Cheers guys! Calum |
|
relake
Senior Member Joined: May-18-2016 Location: IN Status: Offline Points: 126 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
You did a great job on the restoration, Calum!
|
|
Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
You are right on the temp gauge,go ahead and give that a try. The Airguide needs to come apart. Most likely the internal bellows has a crack in it because water at one time got in froze and cracked it. They can be soldered back up. It works like holding a glass upside down in the water, if it has a leak it will fill with water,if sealed the water stays out,the air inside is under pressure. That pressure is what is being measured.
|
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Aha, thank you! I thought that the water pressure was converted to air pressure in the balance tube but obviously it must take water pressure all the way to the gauge.
I've got a spare AirGuide so I'll put that in and get to work on the knackered one. Cheers, you've just spared me from ordering a balance tube for no reason! Calum |
|
Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Your on the right track. The balance tube acts like a shock absorber keeping the needle steady. No water is ever supposed to get that far up to the gauge,much like the upside down glass,the water only goes so far then the column of air compresses. The gauge measures the pressure of that column of air. The faster you go the greater the pressure,make a hole at the end of that column of air will let it out. What creates that pressure,in this case water,will then come through the entire system and leak out.
|
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks Gary, that makes sense now. I'm slowly getting wiser. They say every day is a school day!
Anyone got any advice re the carb? And if I go the Quick Fuel route, does anyone know of a better deal than the standard $495? (This is presuming that the M600 is an OK replacement for the 4160 Holley 650 original? Price seems to jump if I want the QF M-650) And I'm sure I read somewhere that a new fuel feed connector of some sort is required? Potentially a new carb isn't required but I'm running short of ideas! A weird issue I forgot to mention before is a petrol smell when decellerating, seems worse in a left hand turn. No leaks around engine, carb, fuel pump. No obvious signs of fuel around fuel tank, from filler hose, fuel tank vent or fuel feed. Where the hell is it coming from???? |
|
MACS81SN
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2009 Location: NW OH / S. MI Status: Offline Points: 109 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Save yourself a possible headache down the road. Blow out the speedo line with the water in it before putting speedometer back in. If your in an area that freezes, water trapped in balance tube can freeze and crack the copper tube or blow the end off the tube. This can also create an impressive water leak when moving thru the water.
My 99 had one speedo that didn’t work we we bought it. Plus would accumulate 5-10 gallons of water an hour in bilge thru a leak I couldn’t find. On a hunch I blew some compressed air into the pitot tube and could hear air blowing on inside of transom. It’s a real PITA to fix as the tubes are mounted on transom behind the gas tank and tank has to come out to access.. The end was blown off my balance tube and just resoldered it to fix. |
|
Mark
1999 -SN - 502 Python 1981 - SN Owned 33 years - Sold 1968 - Mustang - Sold |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks Mark, As it happens, I do have a leak that I cannot find! Bilge pump copes fine but I replaced the leaky rudder packing and tightened the driveshaft gland this season so those two suspects are off the list.
One of the balance tubes doesn't have any tubing attached as the boat has PP fitted (not that it works mind) so there is every possibility that the other balance tube is the culprit! Will check at the end of the season; I can't face getting the back seat and tank out at the moment. I live in a ski resort so it very much freezes around here! Don't know what I'd do without this forum; thanks all! |
|
Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Update: Speedo fixed!
Got myself one of these: Still need to install it, just short of time this week. Also got a vacuum/pressure gauge to check fuel pump pressure and set up the carb if it's not adjusted correctly out of the box. I noticed the Quick Fuel carb didn't come with a gasket but I've got a spare one for the 4160 and presume that'll work ok? Seems to fit. I've got a query about ignition though. The prestolite distributor doesn't seem to have points/condenser. Any idea what was standard fit in 1997 with the 285hp HO engine? assuming the points aren't hidden below a cover or something, is this breakerless ignition? The odd thing is that the engine does not have a ballast resistor and I replaced the coil last year with the standard one which says on it 'must be used with an external resistor'. Have I got the wrong coil here and, if so, what effect would it have? The Perfect pass gauge which fades in and out and is apparently due to humidity, is no better despite me having coated the circuit board in conformal coating to keep the printed circuit dry. So if anyone has one of these gauges for sale, I'd be pleased to hear about it! Thanks all! |
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |