Hard Starting when hot -FIXED!! |
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MdFooter
Senior Member Joined: January-30-2008 Location: Lakeland, FL Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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Posted: July-12-2008 at 2:23am |
All right guys. I've read every post I can about hard starting and I believe I have a problem not previously described. My 85 SN, w/351W will start up fine at launch and run great for an hour or so. High speed, idle touring, etc. Then all of a sudden it's like she can't get any gas and the motor quits as I try to accelerate. Here are all the new(not rebuilt) parts:
Fuel pump, Holley 4160, Mallory Electronic Distributor, wires, plugs, coil, ballast resistor. Once I open the hood for awhile I can get it started again, and after it cools down even more it runs fine again. Could it be as simple as a fuel supply problem from the tank that develops after an hour of running? We haven't been skiing yet, just driving around on $4 gas. |
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tapenick
Senior Member Joined: May-17-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Could run off a can to eliminate fuel supply issues up to the pump.
Maybe the anti-siphon valve. Tom |
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MdFooter
Senior Member Joined: January-30-2008 Location: Lakeland, FL Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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That's kind of what I was thinking Tom. At least then I could possibly narrow it down to the fuel tank and the fuel line.
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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more like the vent and check valve should be checked.
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tapenick
Senior Member Joined: May-17-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Check valve the same as the anti-siphon valve?
Tom |
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gigem75
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 239 |
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I would think that if you cracked the gas cap before you cut it off after running and then if it starts eaisly after shutting her down then you would know if it was the anti siphon valve. Seems you would also hear air being sucked into the tank from the cap as it was opened if it was the valve.
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theumer
Groupie Joined: July-14-2008 Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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Just a suggestion...might not fit the problem, but check your fuel water separator. You might be getting water in your gas.
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tapenick
Senior Member Joined: May-17-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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If there was something wrong with the vent you may experience this... but the anti-siphon valve would create suction on the fuel line. (not the tank) Tom |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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cracking the cap won't help the anti-siphon valve is at the begining of the full line on top of the tank.
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gigem75
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 239 |
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Good point, thanks for being gentle
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77 nautique
Senior Member Joined: June-24-2006 Location: Schenectady NY Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Hello MdFooter, I just posted a similar post regarding my '77 A few minutes ago. It's funny that before I posted I read quite A few hard start posts but none seemed to apply to me. Wonder if you are having the same problem that I am?
I'm quite confident that someone here will point us in the right direction. |
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Dawg2001
Newbie Joined: June-17-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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MDFooter, you might check your exhaust hoses. If you have a crack in one or both, when it warms up, your getting steam and exhaust in the compartment. Your carb can't get enough air.
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85 SN2001 Will Rogers said: "I'm not affiliated with any organized political party, I'm a Democrat."
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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what the hell are you talking about, if they are cracked they'll be filling up the bilge with water, way out deep in left on this one. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Kevin, If your boat is generating steam, you really need to check into your cooling. |
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MdFooter
Senior Member Joined: January-30-2008 Location: Lakeland, FL Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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I thought about the suction problem so I did open the tank the second time out after it quit running to see if I would hear a wooshing of air into the tank, but there was no suction problem and it still wouldn't start.
I've gently pulled the tank forward to check/replace all the fuel lines and am replacing the fuel/water separator assembly. I haven't found anything that seems like an anti-siphon valve at the top of the tank, just the welded-in tank pick-up and the hose barb. Is something else supposed to be there? Also vent line is clear from tank to hull. Thanks for all the good tips so far! I just want to ski!! |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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The anti-siphon is in the back of that hose barb. It has a spring loaded ball valve in it. I also wondered about what it was and where it was...took it off and eureka!
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Dawg2001
Newbie Joined: June-17-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Well I guess I have been sufficiently chastised about the cracked hose post. However, last year one of my hoses cracked on my "85" 2001 and it did not throw out enough water to fill the bilge but it did emit enough "water vapor" and exhaust fumes to starve my engine of air. I did not have a cooling problem but as the cooling water escaped through the crack it atomized into a fine mist.
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85 SN2001 Will Rogers said: "I'm not affiliated with any organized political party, I'm a Democrat."
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MdFooter
Senior Member Joined: January-30-2008 Location: Lakeland, FL Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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Dawg,
Even though my exhaust hoses weren't cracked, I did find the port side significantly blocked due to partial hose crushing from too long of a piece from the riser to the glass pack which pushed the whole assembly against the transom. Hard to see that if you don't remove the fuel tank. So I straightened that out. To continue working my original problem I ran new fuel line from tank to new filter/water sep., no anti-siphon valve in hose barb at tank, (do I really need one?) and still the same problem. One hour good running then I have to stop and let it cool down. New analysis. Even though I have a new ballast resistor and new Mallory marine coil from Summit, #29716, the description did not specify internal resistor or ballast resistor required for the coil. To test my theory I bypassed the resistor and took the boat out. Ran great, but only for half an hour at 25mph. So the full 12V heated up the coil faster and the engine quit running sooner. Re-connected the resistor and cooled things off so I could get back to the launch. So I steered away from the fuel problem since I replaced everything and the accel pumps still squirted fuel when the engine wouldn't start. My thoughts now are that I have either a bad resistor or coil or that they're not compatable. New ones are on order. Testing will have to wait since a trip back to Cedarburg, WI to visit family is next week. Just when I was getting close!!! |
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MdFooter
Senior Member Joined: January-30-2008 Location: Lakeland, FL Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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The Final Answer:
It turns out the problem was electrical. I put in a different coil, one specifically needing an external resistor, replaced the alternator after discovering only +11.5VDC with the engine running, ran new wires to the ignition circuit and back, and replaced the key switch since I was losing .5V across the switch. I also disconnected and removed the electric choke. Ran great all night both slow speed and high speed. +13.5VDC on the charging circuit and restarted every time. Thanks for all the help!! |
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The Dude
Platinum Member Joined: October-19-2004 Location: Houston Status: Offline Points: 1334 |
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Great to hear you've got it going. Sounds like you solved it on your own!
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Mullet Free since 93
95 Sport |
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Booty
Groupie Joined: July-30-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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OUCH! mdFooter , this was what brainard was talking about in a post about throwing parts and money into a repair before exact problem was diagnosed.You just spent a ton of money to fix a problem that should have been corrected at a lot less cost. I am sure you are getting your 85 in tip top shape and love it but you may not have needed all those new parts at this time. I bet she sure looks good when you raise the engine cover though. and you may be trying to get the ol" girl in mint condition as well. Good job finding the problem I know its frustrating to figure this stuff out some times. I once overhauled a motor when it probably was just the fuel pump . But it had a lot of miles on it and I planed on keeping the vehicle anyway. And it ran good after the rv cam was installed, and towed the ski boat better too.
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Booty
82,2001 82,2001 |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Interesting! Did you start with a different cam? |
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Booty
Groupie Joined: July-30-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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I started with the stock cam in a ford van with a 351. I overhauled it went back with stock pistons/rings crank etc. but put a crane cam in that was 280 duration and 480 lift. At the time they called it their rv/ truck cam for towing etc. I also found cast iron ford factory headers that were used on the hypo mustangs back in the 60's. Exhuast ports were alot bigger than the old stock manifolds at the time. Had a custom y pipe made and had 3" exhaust with a flow master sure woke up that old tired motor up.
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Booty
82,2001 82,2001 |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Im not thrilled about taking in someone elses problems but will and ran across a coil issue last week, you always get the armchair mechanics diagnosing this stuff and you usually replace every part but the part that is causing you the problem.
I sat and sat and thought about the problem and what threw me on this one was that everything was new already from the previous shop that it sat at for 4 weeks, he put all his Summit racing matched parts on the boat, dist.,coil, volt reg, ballast resistor. I started logically checking things with a DVM and everything checked out, I noticed the coil said 12 volts on the outside so that made me curious and i gave the Boat doc a shout and started to run the problem by him and we both agreed he had the wrong coil on the boat, it was for a point system not a breakerless something so simple caused the guy to be without his boat for 4 weeks and im sure the prior shop got thier money before the boat came to me. the moral of the story....anyone can replace parts and all it does is cost you money and time. a engine needs three things 1. air 2. fuel 3. spark make that 4 for Greg.....vacuum lol anyways you always start with those three and then you can concentrate on which way the problem is going, think logically because 99% of the time the problem is simple and in-expensive to fix |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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another one last week was a 60hp out board (same principle) it cranked and no start, once again the armchairs starting diagnosing it, I merely took a can of starting fluid and gave it a quick shot and it fired (not recomended) the customer told me no spark and was standing right there, why did it fire if it had no spark? i narrowed it to a fuel problem and concentrated on fuel not spark.
the week before i sold him a fuel line and primer bulb and i noticed the arrow was towards the fuel tank, I stopped right there and let one of my guy's loose on it to see if he could figure it out....the clock was ticking, 1/2 hour goes by and he has the fuel pump apart, the screen apart, sure as *************** he couldnt find the easist problem in the world, you have to approach these problems with the attitude of "if this does this what will this do" I cut him short and told him the problem. bring me a cold 12er at the end of the day, how could i possiblty charge the guy |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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jbear
Grand Poobah Joined: January-21-2005 Location: Lake Wales FL. Status: Offline Points: 8193 |
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like your new signature line eric.
john |
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"Loud pipes save lives"
AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
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MdFooter
Senior Member Joined: January-30-2008 Location: Lakeland, FL Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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Booty,
I hear what you are saying but all the expensive parts were replaced for other reasons before I had the problem. It wasn't until I got the boat home after buying it that I realized some previous owner had run it in saltwater w/out a freshwater kit. Corrosion and neglected maintenance all over the motor. To just change the plugs required pulling a head after one plug snapped off from too much rust around the hex. I decided to replace the distributor after the stock pertronix turned out to be so corroded that the mechanical advance didn't work. The secondaries on the Holley were also completely seized and to save time, since it was already June, I made the plunge for a whole new Holley. So my biggest blunder was settling for this boat and not being more objective about it, and being a little too quick on the point and click at Summit and not making sure all my parts matched. You're right, it's too easy to get caught up in ordering more parts without doing a thorough diagnosis. But the only duplicate parts I have are the wrong coil, a left hand distributor gear for a Mallory, and a Holley 4160 body that might be salvageable with some patience. All the other parts were junk anyway. It looks a little better now but really needs paint everwhere. The picture shows what I had to start with. A mug only a CCFan could love! The really expensive parts I have put off. My heads are weeping externally and are dripping water on my new head bolts and spark plugs, and I can just imagine what condition the block is in after so much saltwater. I check the oil after every time out and there is no water in the oil. For now, my only cash burn is for gas and I hope to get a few months/weeks of skiing in before the cold weather comes or something major breaks. Then I will tear down the engine and slowly give it the once over it needs. Any thoughts on using a good recycled 351W automotive engine block as my starting point? |
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MdFooter
Senior Member Joined: January-30-2008 Location: Lakeland, FL Status: Offline Points: 100 |
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Eric,
I'm going to throw a curve ball to your coil problem, since the coil I'm currently using, a Mallory 29705 also says 12V on the outside, but I am using the Mallory Marine electronic distributor YLM554CV and that is the combo that is finally working. The caveat I think is that the dist. says it will work with OEM and aftermarket coils and now that I have a solid 12V or better powering the dist. life is good. Bottom line like you said is to make sure the dist. and coil are compatable. |
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Booty
Groupie Joined: July-30-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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I wasn't trying to bash you I saw your diary on the boat and realized you were might be trying to spruce the ol girl up. After seeing your engine ,it looks like a friend of mine"s ,lots of salt water,lots of neglect. My buddy has had 3 motors in his boat since 1988 not because he is a motor junkie either. I can't even shame him into taking care of it.Mine isn't perfect by any means but I keep it clean and maintain it., and it does have some problem areas. Motor could stand to repainted it's an older restoration from 1992 and time and wear and tear or starting to show.YOur interior looks great and you will get your motor in shape. You might invest in a sand blaster to clean up all your parts as you rebuild. You will be amazed at what a little cleaning and paint will do. Your block may be ok to use for the rebuild , the heads looked pretty rough with corrossion , hey gt 40"s in the future.
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Booty
82,2001 82,2001 |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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hope you are using the ballast resistor and if your not you better be getting one real quick. Unless the spec's are different on the M unit over the uni-lite unit. |
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