Where’s all that water coming from? |
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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Posted: July-21-2008 at 2:52pm |
My '69 Barracuda has leaked for quite some time and I've been trying to avoid pulling up the floor. I would like to get through this season, but I'm suddenly getting water a lot faster than before.
I've tried very hard to find the source, but it has escaped me so far. I've RTV'd around all the ski platform bolts and they don't seem to be the problem. That is, that effort made little difference. I'm now wondering if it's an exhaust leak, as the water in the bottom of the boat is very warm. I also took off the trim rings around the exhaust tips and cleaned them up and RTV'd around them generously too. I don't have any other visible problems in the back. I've replaced the driveshaft packing and the rudder isn't leaking all that water. Right beside the center floor panel that the engine cover attaches to, the water pours over the driver's side stringer into the center well. There's a small gap between the stringer and the floor plywood that it comes through. It used to trickle, but now it's quite a bit faster. Is that a bad exhaust pipe? I've never had that side of the floor up, so I'm not sure what it looks like under there. Is that water coming from the exhaust after it passes through the engine, or is that water coming in from the lake back up into the exhaust? It didn't seem to be coming at the same rate all the time. I know I have other work to do on the floor elsewhere and I would like to take it all up and do it all at once, but I'm thinking I might have to fix this before I can ski much more. Is it feasible to think I can replace an exhaust pipe without going down for the rest of this season? If so, where do I get an exhaust pipe (or two) for this boat? BTW, my Garmin GPS, which is accurate to 1-2 mph, says my current top speed is 45 mph with my newly rebuilt, reverse-rotation, roller cam 318. And it really digs out of the hole like a raging bull. Thomas |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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I would venture to say,Yes there is a in the exhaust . Being it is below waterline most of the time,it will seek its own level.
Pull the floor and replace the hose before you call a salvage co. to pull the boat from the deep............Boat dr |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Thomas, I agree with the Doc but before you pull up the floor, get the gas tank out of the way and disconnect the exhaust hoses from the through hulls as well as the exhaust risers. There is a chance that you will be able to remove the old and replace it without pulling the floor.
BTW, don't go spreading RTV all over the place! Haven't you ever noticed it really doesn't stick to anything or at least not for very long. You might as well duck tape it! 3M 5200 is the way to go. |
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82ski2001
Groupie Joined: September-28-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 74 |
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yeah i agree 5200 is the best stuff on the market...that stuff dries up like concrete.
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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Thanks for the responses. You're confirming my fears. The RTV was more of an experiment to find the leak than an attempt at a permanent patch. I bought some of that 3M 5200 stuff a while back, but I didn't want to be fighting it when it came to tearing out the floors later.
My exhaust manifold empties into a thick rubber boot that comes out of the floor. I can't imagine getting it out without pulling the floor. But I'd like to know I can either get or already have the parts to replace whatever's defective before I rip it all up. What should I expect to see under there? Does the rubber boot extend all the way to the back wall (transom)? Is that the exhaust pipe? Or does the boot connect to metal that runs to the back? My boot is beginning to split at the top where it meets the exhaust manifold. I should probably replace it anyway while the floor is apart. Who has those things? Is it a common part, or unique to my boat? If so, is it likely my pipe is OK, but there's a broken hose clamp under there somewhere? Seems like I've heard those pipes can be stainless? Is it possible to go to a local exhaust shop and get them to make up a stainless pipe to replace whatever's broken on my boat? Finally, is it feasible to think I could have this all torn up and back together in a weekend or am I really down for the season? Thomas |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Thomas, On a 69, you should have hose like I suggested all the way. That is not a boot you are looking at, it's the hose. Earlier boats had straight lengths of copper tubing and not stainless. It isn't something as simple as a broken hose clamp. Your hose has reached the end of it's life!!
Shop around. Skidim, Go2marine and West carry it. Even McMaster Carr supply has it but with them, it's labeled as Bun-N rubber coolant hose. The stuff isn't cheap. Expect to pay over $15 per foot. Don't cheap out and stick some muffler shop so called stainless pipe in there. The grade of stainless you get is very important. Remember what the Doc told you about the bottom of the lake! Your floor may be cut rather close around the hose. You may need to enlarge this area to aid in the R&R but as long as it's under the dog house(engine enclosure) it's better than pulling up the floor. The R&R will be easier from the rear since you will have more access room (once the gas tank is out) to the hose pocket. If by chance you still have some copper tubing down there then you may have to pull up the floor. The hull side panels need to come out too for complete floor removal but you may be able to just lift the rear edges to get it out. Do you still have the original floor covering which was HD vinyl wall covering? Get some pictures posted! |
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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There's no muffler down there? It's just straight hose?
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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Anybody know the diameter? At West Marine I found:
Trident Rubber 3-1/2" ID Flex Marine Exhaust for $21.79/ft. Trident Rubber 3-1/8" ID Flex Marine Exhaust for $18.99/ft. Shields Rubber 3-1/2" ID Series 200 for $18.69/ft. The Trident Rubber hoses have a wire helix inside. The Shields Rubber hose has no wire inside. Do I need the wire? |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Skidim is a little cheaper I think.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Thomas, Check the ID of the hose. Most likely being a 69 it's 3" but it is about the time that they switched form the earlier 2&1/2"
No, you will not find a muffler. Depending on the amount of bend the hose makes from the bilge to the exhaust manifold determines if you need wire.I would suggest the wire. You also may need corrugated which I didn't mention if the bend is real tight and close to 90 degrees. A picture would help. Did you pull the floor up or at least enough to see no mufflers? |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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I believe it is 3" but it might be smaller on your boat not sure what was on that year boat.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21184 |
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If the boat originally had a Chrysler, it had a 3" exhaust.
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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Someone pulled the original vinyl years ago and re-decorated with blue astroturf.
It was an original Chrysler. No pics yet because I haven't pulled the floor yet. I was hoping to figure out what to order so I wouldn't have to wait to pull the floor before I could order the new hose. I would like to do it all in one weekend, but I guess that's not really feasible. I suspect there's a pretty sharp bend because it goes straight down into the floor from the manifold. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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it shouldn't take but a couple of hours to replace, the center section of the floor is just screw down and should lift up easily. Regarding the hose just remove it at the exhaust manifold and measure the ID and order the length you need but you might want to figure out how to lift the section of floor right behind the motor box, but look along where the main stringers are located and follor them towrds the back looking for screw heads might be buried on the crapet and hard to see but you should be able to feel them. I am assuming the it is like the newer models so Tim or anyone else correct my please.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21184 |
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Im not sure thats the case. On both my '71's, the exhaust hoses are foamed and glassed in. I believe Reid told me that they went to the open exhaust cavities in either '72 or '73. I know he's converted a few of the older boats so the hose is easier to swap out. |
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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On my boat, the exhaust hoses go outside the center stringers, not through the center cavity. The center section in mine is right behind the engine cover and doesn't attach. It pulls right out, but only accesses the prop shaft and a mostly empty cavity. I have to pull the rear side floor.
I can see where the exhaust hoses come up just in front of the gas tank. They take a sharp 90-degree turn right when they drop through the floor. It's obviously custom-formed from the factory. A local hose shop has 3" ID nitrile-lined rubber hose good up to 250 degrees. It's not wire-lined. My machinist tells me it's fine for this application. When I asked the hose shop proprietor if you can turn a 90 degree bend without collapsing it, he said he could do that with a 4-inch piece. I can't understand how that would work, but I guess I'll have to go see it to know if he's been sucking down too many fumes. I wonder if there's a wire insert you can use like a radiator hose to keep it from collapsing? Besides the local availability, the price is also enticing: about $3 and some change per foot, as opposed to $16 per foot for corrugated exhaust hose. Someone suggested turning the corner with a 90 degree stainless or copper pipe. I couldn't find a muffler pipe that had such a thing. Aren't there new diesel trucks with 3-inch stainless exhaust systems and 90-degree bends? PVC was also suggested for turning the corner. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Thomas, The exhaust hose is not somthing you want to cheap out on! Do it the correct way and get some corrugated hose so it makes the 90. The sharp bend is not a custom formed factory part. It may look like it but it's been bent like that for close to 40 years plus all dried out! No PVC. By the time you buy a 90 elbow in stainless (no truck mufflershop parts - rememeber I mentioned the alloy isn't good for marine) or copper and the extra hose clamps the hose will be cheaper. With the elbows, you will need 12 extra hose clamps because you really need 2 per joint and I highly recommend the "T" type. That's $100 in clamps alone!! I think you're getting a hose job from the hose shop!! A 90 degree 4" piece of what???
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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Oh yeah, I got hosed by the hose dealer. When I showed up he 'fessed up: when I said "three-inch hose" on the phone, he heard "three-eighths-inch hose". Hence the huge price difference. And no wonder he could bend it so easily. His three-inch wire-wrapped hose is $25/foot. Thanks.
I can get a copper 3-inch 90-degree elbow for a little over $30 each. Ouch. Southeast Correct Craft said they used to cut the layer of fiberglass off the top of the exhaust hose chamber (there should be one below the plywood floor—it's just cosmetic), remove all the foam, replace the straight pipe with PVC, leave out the foam and fiberglass, and hook it all up with short, bendable pieces of 3-inch rubber hose. Apparently, the original design was a short, L-shaped piece of rubber that runs from the manifold, turns the 90 degrees, and stops. It's hooked to the straight piece that runs to the thru-hull fittings. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Thomas, Open it up and see what's in there. You may luck out and still have the older method of using the copper tubing. Then you only need small lengths of hose) I'm very leary about PVC. Yes it has been used but if you have any cooling issues it would be be a big melt down rather quickly. You also need to understand the hose is sized by the ID and normal SCD. pipe sizes are weird so their OD's aren't going to match. The rubber hose doesn't like to stretch or compress much. Copper would be better but here again, a 3" will have a OD of 3&1/8". Trust me, that extra 1/8" will be tough to get the hose over. A 3" copper elbow will have a OD of 3&1/4" so forget about getting a 3" ID hose on it! Fiberglass exhaust tubing is made and may be a less expensive alternate.
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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Opened up. Wowie!
From the manifold a short elbow drops through the floor and turns sharply (90 degrees) to the rear. Then it stops and couples to a long straight hose that runs to the back wall. The elbow is approximately 10 inches on each leg. There are only two pieces. The two pieces couple together with what must be about a 5-inch piece of 3-inch OD stainless pipe. What had happened to mine is that the coupler mysteriously slid inside the hose to the rear. It was about three inches beyond the lip of the rear piece. So, no coupling going on there! All my pieces are intact with no holes, so I could just clamp it all up and get back in the water. However… Most of the heads of the clamps are rusted away, so no turning them. New clamps everywhere. The factory double-clamped the hose at the back wall, but not at the coupler. Hmmm. The straight hose has what looks like and aneurism inside and feels soft outside, so I'm sure it's at the end of it's life. I can get a 3-inch stainless elbow with 6-inch legs and a 4.x-inch radius bend for $45. That's just one. A 3-inch stainless pipe is $20/ft., and I need about 6 feet. I could have the straight piece and the elbow made as one piece, but I really don't know if I can install it that way without removing a brace that runs across the top of the stringer. I'm going to a local muffler shop Friday where the phone guy promised me his fabricator can make anything I want in 3" aluminized steel. I'm a little leery about putting steel down there, but I'm told it will last 40+ years. Then I could just use the $25/ft. hose for coupling the ends. The side cavity where the hose runs was completely full of water-soaked foam. I took a bunch out. I also had to cut back the thin layer of fiberglass under the floor to get to the hose. As I wrote above, the fellow at Southeast Correct Craft said they don't even replace that foam. They recommend just covering it all back up with the floor. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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That's 40+ dog years - Aluminized steel is a bad choice IMO. You could get some electrolysis going too.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21184 |
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Another option would be to buy some SS pipe and bends yourself, then have the fabricator put them together for you.
$20/ft is a bit high- Verocious Motorsports sells good quality 304SS pipe for $15/ft. I used their stuff exclusively for my exhaust project. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Thomas, I need to tell you too. No on the aluminized steel!
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13514 |
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If you want to put in the "soft walled" corrugated hose that these guys are talking about call up your local industrial supply house and get a price on this Goodyear product.
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tleed
Senior Member Joined: August-24-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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OK, I got the message on the aluminized steel. No!
I went and talked to the muffler shop guy. It took him a while to realize that it's always wet. And when he started talking like it would last "a while" before it rusted out, I concluded it wasn't a good idea. He did say if I could find 3" stainless pipe he could bend it. As for the current crisis, I can just hook up the old hose properly and expect it to get me through the rest of the season. I bought six new clamps today to replace the rusted-out ones. It really is time to pull out the whole floor and do it up right, so I'll put all this wisdom to work this winter when that comes around. SkiDIM's $16.61/ft. corrugated product is looking more attractive. But I'm still on the hunt for 3" stainless or copper. |
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21184 |
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Did you see my link above for stainless bends and tubing? Ask your exhaust guy what kind of bends he can do- if theyre mondrel, youre golden and can go with the SS the whole way. If he just has a crush bender, dont even bother- go with the corrugated hose, at least for the bends. |
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