What next? STILL not running right? |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Posted: August-11-2010 at 3:04am |
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I have been working on trying to get my 64 Interceptor (Ford 170ci) running right and am running out of options. The motor starts and runs great at idle. It will rev up to redline with NO load. When I try to get the boat to plane, it pretty much falls flat on its face, around 2200rpm....like its running out of fuel. After the engine is warm, all you have to do is "bump" the key and it fires right off.
To bring you up to speed.... I rebuilt a "modern", 1978 head from a 200 six banger earlier this spring. The head was mildly ported and milled .060, to bring it back to the specs of original 170 head. Doing this I'm running around 8.5:1 compression.the heads are CC'ing around 50 1/2...the original head had 52cc chambers. I also had to make a new "adapter elbow" to mount the Carter YH sidedraft carb. This adapter has a 1 3/4" I.S. dia. (this matches the new head's carb bore size) The original El was only 1 3/8" at the intake. To date heres some of what I've tried.. Rebuilt Carb. Rebuilt mechanical fuel pump. All new fuel lines. Added spin on type fuel filter. Replaced Mallory dizzy from another motor. New points, cap, condenser, rotor. Changed ignition coil (from another motor) New steel exhaust pipes. Motor idles with around 18" of vacuum. Set timing at 10BTDC per manual(as well as 10 to 15 more/less each way) Dont know total advance, but with light it moves when throttle is cracked. (Looking for someone with an old Sun machine to spin it up). Tonight I ran an electric fuel pump "plumbed" into a 5 gal gas can and running directly to the carb, completely eliminating the boats fuel system ...still no go. Per Boat Dr, I am ready to check cam timing... I am also going to change prop from a 12-13 back to a stock 12-12. Any other ideas what to try next? FWIW...here'sa pic of the motor with the new SS carb adapter elbow... |
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storm34
Grand Poobah Joined: November-03-2008 Location: Dexter Iowa Status: Offline Points: 4492 |
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rebuild the flux capacitor ! JK Steve, sorry to hear she is still not running right!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
Billy and I have discussed the problem and he brought up the cam timing but that was before you had gotten the vac reading. I don't feel you'd be getting 18" with the cam off even by 1 tooth. However, you've done everything else!! Might as well take a look at it!! Have you ever run it with the 12 pitch prop? If so, what did you get out of it for WOT RPM then? |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Steve - This is the shop that worked on my Prestolite dizzy. FYI.
http://www.advanceddistributors.com/ |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
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Steve, before dinking with the cam timing, I sure as heck would be verifying that youre getting all of the mechanical advance out of the dizzy that you should. A decent timing light with a dial would make this very easy.
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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I would lean toward timing as well, when you had it bumped up to 15 did you see any improvement while under load? It sounds like it's advancing but is it enough, with the added intial you should seen a little more rpm or at worst some improvement early on as your coming up on rpm.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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When Mark and I were out with Steve on GL, we did play with the distributor as well as the carb. Manually advancing the distributor did not increase the WOT RPM.
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The Lake
Platinum Member Joined: May-13-2005 Location: Lk Winnebago MO Status: Offline Points: 1157 |
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Steve,
I of course have no mechanical advice, but in another month you'll have ice up there anyway and you won't wanna be on that river. But I'm hoping something works out for you. Chuck |
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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I'm leaning toward a carb problem or a vacuum leak (too lean in the midrange). It sounds to me like the enrichment circuit of the carb may not be working right.
You don't need a Sun machine to check the timing. Put a timing light on and see how far the mark is moving when you rev the engine. You can always calculate how far 20 degrees or so is from the zero mark and make another mark with a sharpie for reference. A dial back timing light is a necessity! That engine looks so sweet I went back for another look! Also, I saw something that can cause your problem. There is an open hole in the intake below the carb!!! Put a plug in it and retry!!! If this is the problem you owe me a beer! |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Pete, I have to kind of agree, but then again where else to look than the lower end? I think I am going to get a set of fresh sparkers. while out, I want to turn the engine 'back and forth' with a breaker bar, while watching the rotor to see if any 'rotational play'. Also think Im going to take valve cover off to visually check the cam lift. Also going to do a "wet-oil" compression check while plugs are out, probably a cylinder leak down test as well. As for the prop I ran a 12x12 at first but would never run over 3200r's or so... remember tho, with the head I replaced, we figured the motor was running less than 7:1 compression at the time. As for total timing, I really dont know. It does advance when I rev the motor, just dont know exactly how much. Wouldnt turning the dizzy manually, while under way, like we did at GL compensate for any timing discrepancies? (It looks like a dial back light purchase is in the near future...should have one anyway..) Chuck...your not too far off, if I do get into the bottom end, it's a winter project at this time.. btw, the river just opened from the flooding... of coarse No Wake for now... look out.... "pontoona time"! |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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So, the bottom end was not rebuilt? Does it have a timing chain or gears?
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Toigs325
Groupie Joined: September-15-2009 Location: Minocqua, WI Status: Offline Points: 90 |
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Make sure you aren't running fuel with ethanol in it. Most gas stations have 10% now and that was a big problem on all of my carburated engines. I know this is about as basic as you can get but it seems like you have done everything but buy a completely new crate engine...New plugs and wires are a good idea too, I didnt see any mention of that.
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2003 Ski Nautique 196 SE
1966 Correct Craft Mustang |
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Brktracer
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 387 |
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What is spark plug gap? Have you tried different dwell settings?
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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not an issue all HS ethanol causing problem, it's been out for over 20 yrs all ready. If you've got an extremely old boat that is all gummed up and crap is in the tank you might have some issue, but this isn't the case with Steve's Boat. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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With you manually moving it and seeing no improvement then that eleminates the Distributor as the problem. So it's either over propped, not likely, or your not getting enough gas throught the carb. You have eleminated a gas pick-up issue but not the carb, while under power, spray carb cleaner, or gas through the carb's throat an see if the rpms pick up if it does then you have to tweek the carb, if it does nothing then your going to have to leave the beer cooler at the dock and lighten the load. |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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FWIW, here is a pic that "UK Roger" took of the engine taken at GL...
. The pcv valve is taped off because of the vent tube from the oil fill cap. Bottom end is NOT rebuilt...yet... it has a timing chain.. 10% E.fuel is all we can get ....been running it for 6 years.. Plug wires are solid cores ... about 2 years old...not many hours on them. Plug gap is set at 30 or 35 ..cant remember for sure.. these plugs are a year old... new ones will be in this weekend. Point gap is 24 per Interceptor manual.. no dwell specs in that manual.. Dwell is running around 37...what ford calls for. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Chris,
At the GL troubleshooting, we also squirted extra gas down the carb to see if it was a lack of fuel. Bogged out worse!!! |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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well we are back to prop then, unless the compression is down, the dwell seems high to me thought 30 was about right but if the book states 37 then who knows. Might double check all the intake bolts make sure your not sucking air anywhere, doubt you'll fine any loose since it idles fine, just a realy odd ball probelm.
heres a thought bypass the ballast resistor if it has one, this will give it a hotter spark, see if that changes anything. |
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Toigs325
Groupie Joined: September-15-2009 Location: Minocqua, WI Status: Offline Points: 90 |
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I have a 2003 196 SE with a holley 4 barrel...it ran like crap for a couple months until we figured out that the fuel we were using had ethanol in it and the carb couldnt handle it. I have also heard that it can cause boiling and overheating. |
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2003 Ski Nautique 196 SE
1966 Correct Craft Mustang |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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no you finally got the water out of the gas tank and seperator and bought into a bunch of BS actually, I'll go out on a limb and bet you took it to a dealer and spent about a grand to find out your carb couldn't handle the gasoline blend. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Andrew,
I have to go with Chris on this ethanol issue. It's really a "shade tree" mechanics excuse for problems he can't fix. However, I do agree it can cause problem on older boats that have lots of crud built up in their tanks. It's solvency dissolves it and then it's on it's way to the engine. I run it in all my boats without issues. On my 54 I have the old style fuel pump with the sediment bowl. It's finally getting to the point where it running pretty clean but at first I was getting tons of crud out of the tank. My 64 has the same sediment bowl set up but nothing the last time I checked. That tank must have been clean from the start of the ethanol. No problems with rubber hoses so far ether. I feel the big reason you find non ethanol fuel out on the gas dock is because they make more money off it!! |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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The boat is running about 140 lbs cold compression with this head, up from about 130 with old head. Book calls for 160, altho manual states +/- 20 lbs, so at edge of low range. BTW, I did the comp. test..no plugs/ no carb/ cold motor. Intake is cast into the head.. no bolts.. as for gas tank, it was cleaned and a liner installed last year. . |
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Toigs325
Groupie Joined: September-15-2009 Location: Minocqua, WI Status: Offline Points: 90 |
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no you finally got the water out of the gas tank and seperator and bought into a bunch of BS actually, I'll go out on a limb and bet you took it to a dealer and spent about a grand to find out your carb couldn't handle the gasoline blend. [/QUOTE]
No, more than that, haha. We drained the tank, rebuilt the carb, replaced the fuel lines, fuel filter, and fuel pump...it still bogged out everyonce in a while when we throttled her up. We switched to Shell gasoline and it solved it...we must have gotten lucky. |
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2003 Ski Nautique 196 SE
1966 Correct Craft Mustang |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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Steve check the voltage at the coil, but it's sounding like a new prop, you've been through it and checked about everything to check so there isn't much left but that.
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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or stopped buying gasoline with water in it. |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Run BP fuel for years.. (dont like the Shell owner in town.)
Like I say, there may be a little blow-by from the valve cover vent tube, we noticed this at GL.... I'm hoping to do a wet and dry compression test, as well as a cylinder leak down test when I get time. will also change back to 12x12 and new plugs in. after that...Lower end .... here I come... |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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after all that is done and if you don't see any changes change the dwell get it closer to 30 and then retime it.
Does you ignition system use a ballast resistor? |
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62 wood
Grand Poobah Joined: February-19-2005 Location: NW IL Status: Offline Points: 4527 |
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Chris.. yes it does have a ballast resistor. It was changed last year..I think it was a Chrysler one we used ... it had similar specs to what a Falcon used, if that means anything? I also thought the dwell was a bit high, I'm used to the SBC's 30 myself. The Interceptor manual has no reference to correct dwell, just point gap of .024. Like I say , the Ford book calls for the 6 banger to have 37 or 38 dwell, of coarse they arent using a Mallory dizzy. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
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Sorry Steve, but I missed this earlier. Lets see if I understand this correctly... the 12x12 was stock? Or just what the boat came with when you bought it? Did you ever get the RPM's out of it that you wanted before you tinkered with the engine (resulting in lackluster performance)? Seems like if you couldnt turn the 12x12, then all the compression improvements in the world wouldnt be enough to pick up 1000 RPM, especially with a larger 12x13. Id go back to the 12x12 and see where youre at... with 170ci, I would think that would still be a pretty big wheel. Bruce was planning to use something smaller on his 100hp 170ci... do you have the same powerplant?
The 4bbl 302's use 12x13 or 12x14's. Being down 130+ ci on the same sized boat, a 12x9 or 12x10 may be a better starting point. |
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