EFI Conversion on a 76 PCM 351W |
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Hey Alpha,
I am having my 99 GT40 rebuilt as we speak. I am turning the engine to a 408 with a holley dominator efi system and reusing the original gt40 intake for aesthetics. In regard to the Howell EFI 02 adapter, do these adapters fit standard PCM ford exhaust manifolds? It would be awesome if they do so I dont have to machine a set. Thanks! EDIT- I just realized these are only bungs, not adapter plates.
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Peter6000
Newbie Joined: June-04-2017 Location: Northern VA Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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DHMC, you right you can not use the buns, you cant weld on the exhaust, plus there is water cooling.
You also cant use the adapters shown in post 1 there is no room to come our sideways on the right side the Intake is in the way on the left the flame arrestor. I found my adapters on ebay the seller first said he can get more but when i actually requested them he went silent. This is 3 years ago I believe I paid $200 or so. If you decide to have them machined somewhere I would post it here you might find a GT40 owners that are interested. Would drop the price for everybody. If you want to see pictures of mine go here. https://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42211 Peter |
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AlfaDon
Senior Member Joined: September-18-2011 Location: San Leandro, Ca Status: Offline Points: 392 |
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Hi McFadin
The Howell adapters aren't bungs the way we typically think about them. They're designed to thread into the inner wall of the riser, and seal against the outer wall with an O-ring. Mine have worked great for 2 seasons now. At the time I bought them, the sandwich type wasn't available off the shelf like they are for the Mercruisers.
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DHMcFadin
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2019 Location: Austin, Texas Status: Offline Points: 312 |
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Thanks for the clarification. I ordered one Howell adapter. Also decided to ditch the PCM manifolds and risers and go with a 4" GLM exhaust kit. Should flow much better than the PCM's. One of the risers is at the machine shop as we speak! Thanks for everyones help explaining this to me!
[QUOTE=AlfaDon] Hi McFadin The Howell adapters aren't bungs the way we typically think about them. They're designed to thread into the inner wall of the riser, and seal against the outer wall with an O-ring. Mine have worked great for 2 seasons now. At the time I bought them, the sandwich type wasn't available off the shelf like they are for the Mercruisers. |
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Footer 1952
Newbie Joined: August-13-2010 Location: Somerset Cty Pa Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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Hello Real Internal Combustion (on water) Engineers!
I have yet to convert to EFI but want to. I can handle a wrench and yank a 454 and put the right bearings back in it.. I have taken the electical step to install electronic ignition as I hate (points, plugs condenser) etc even back to my 1970 VW Beetle!!! However I am worn out with holley 4160 issues. (yes I know that ethanol plays a part) Have paid a carb guy every 4 or 5 years to get me back there. Hey I wanna pull 4 barefooters without needing step off skis. My buddy with AN efi malibu can pull 5!!! OUCH! Anybody out there put EFI on a vintage 454??? Heck I don't know how you cover the mechanical fuel pump mounting hole?? Have googled and found for Marine... Holley EFI, Summit Racing, Mega Squirt, Affordable Fuel Injection, "Where Do I Begin" |
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Lets go footin'
'86 Barefoot Nautique |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21108 |
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Pass on efi. A properly tuned carbureted 454 can pull 6 deep if it’s propped down a little. Quick fuel offers a nice carb if your Holley is worn out... but it sounds like you are suffering with fuel quality issues. I’d go through the fuel system and find a better gas station. No issues with e10 here, 100+ hrs/season on my carb 454.
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rosconole
Gold Member Joined: May-10-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 758 |
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Any EFI system is far superior to any carburetor why do you think pretty much every car and boat on the planet is now?? Sure a carburetor may make ever so slight amount of more power but it is really small number in comparision to how many times your going to rebuild that unit over time, cold starts , Its not that difficult once you get it tuned and know the pitfalls your going to encounter to begin with . Most people are scared of it really because of the unknown or scared of change or maybe still own T- shirt from 1970 that still fits.
Really the best option for the $ right now is the Holley sniper EFI it meets the coast guard standard and with the master kit you get everything you need with exception of plumbing a return (hardin marine has one for fill hose) and where your going to plumb 02 sensor. FAST efi is still an option but its pricey and requires more tuning and has alot less support than the Holley EFI systems. Having tuned on most of them out there I have seen the good bad and ugly. Sure Quickfuel is another option but your back in the same boat probably a few years down the road. Time to say goodby to cold starts and hesitation. I am tired of sitting at the dock waiting for 454 to warm up as well and I certainly don't have fuel quality issue and 351 was also most same way with a brand new holley carburetor. |
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1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Twist it any way you want the only reason for fuel injection is simple - EPA and California mandated air quality standards |
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Peter6000
Newbie Joined: June-04-2017 Location: Northern VA Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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I'm with rosconole I converted to MS3X 4 years ago from ford fuel inj. on a GT40 and had many carburetor's before, I never go back I choose the Ms3X because it offered the most options for tuning and control but it also requires more programming the Holley system is more plug and play.
I think the EPA emission standards are good and protect us from unnecessary smog, And for sure not the only reason for fuel injection. Peter |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Gary, I agree. I also feel there's nothing wrong with carbs. They have served me well for years and years without touching them.
John, Do you have a dwell meter? |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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Unless you’re running 6,000 ft in the morning and sea level in the evening I see no reason to convert to EFI. Yeah I have trouble with carbs every 4-5 years so I just replace with a new one and before my coffee gets cold I’m back to running. A new $750 Holley 4160 “calibrated” for SBF from Summit works out to $187 a year, I feel that’s reasonable enough. I’ve never been a fan of rebuilding carb’s. A properly tuned carb starts is as easy as using toilet paper so I’m confused as to where they’re “hard to start”. And EFI or not I wouldn’t plan on pulling up a skier until temps 160 which usually happens by the time we get the vest on.
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Please support The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5766 |
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Holy petrol batman, all the carb guys just spit out their coffee. LOL, A carb that old acting up probably just needs a cleaning and a new gasket set. I see your cost point but that's a little extreme for me. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
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I find bolting up a new carb and having the engine run well extremely satisfying We have had few issues with good running carbs unless they sucked up water or debris. We bought a new boat in 2003 with a carb and I don't regret not getting efi at all.
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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I have a few 4160’s to sell. Very lightly used, may just need cleaning and gaskets. $200 each. Now I’ve got my annual cost down to $110 year. That’s probably equal to what guys pay for seafoak type additives and nonE fuel per year. |
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Please support The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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I think some finally discard their pos fram cartridge filter and install something that actualy functions and clean their tank and replace the hoses and say see, efi fixed it
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Now I need to clean up all the coffee!! I remember rebuilding my YH's on the 312. The engine ran great but I thought that after 40 years without touching them it was time for rebuilding. Well, the 312 ran the same it did before and BTW still started great too. A couple pumps of the accelerator and she is running. EFI???? Gee, maybe it's time I rebuild the carb on the 66 year old model B? Is there a EFI system I can use on a 4 cylinder? |
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Footer 1952
Newbie Joined: August-13-2010 Location: Somerset Cty Pa Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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Pete, Sorry for the long time to answer. Covid 19 gonna give me some time to dig into these issues Ive been battling. Looked for my dwell meter but then I remembered tossing it likely 2007 when I put EI on the BFN and owned no cars without EI.
I have never traded a car and with the exception of exhaust work (I'm an ugly welder) have never paid a $$ on auto service fees. Drive em' till they are uneconomic to fix. Like donateing them to a charity for the tax value. Less haggling when buying a car. Did clutches, ball joints, half shafts, brakes etc etc. Bought my BFN (my first inboard) in 2004.(skied rather shallow lakes B4 1996 so wanted an outboard with power trim) Early on after buying it I had to crank extensively when cold but determined that choke plate was getting hung up on underside of flame arrestor. Now when cold I remove arrestor to confirm plate is fully closed to start. By 2007 was having long cranking required for starting when warm after shutting it off a few minutes between skiers. A good ski nautique friend told me he had a stars and stripes mastercraft with a holley 4 barrel and he had issues like mine. He told me he bought a 2nd carb and replaced and rebuilt his every season after that and never had another problem. In 2007 I took the carb to a seasoned auto mechanic (am not good with TINY parts and can't live with a boat not available) and a skiDim rebuild kit and it started with a few cranks warm and cold intil 2016. From 2016 to 2019 I'd dump a can of sea foam every other week when long cranking starting returned and no issues (frequency increasing as the months went by). Again late summer 2019 I had issues starting it when warm (but not when cold) Took carb back to my rebuilder and problem again solved. I have experimented with gas from a turnpike vacinity high volume convenience store to the local small convenience store that is closest to home. Can't say I see a difference. Have changed fuel filters 3 times. Replaced all fuel lines with ethanol friendly hosing somewhere in that time period. It has rarely "instant started" like a fuel injected engine (or like any car I have owned carbureted or FI). Hence my slight dismay. I'm always able to start it but my wife "will not take the boat out by herself". My adult son would not take it out without me first starting it this past summer. Am sure a dwell meter can be found on ebay!! What do I do with it??? Since I have EI. John |
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Lets go footin'
'86 Barefoot Nautique |
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Footer 1952
Newbie Joined: August-13-2010 Location: Somerset Cty Pa Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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TRBenj I'm running a 14RH15 now and at 42 MPH am at 3800 RPM.(manual says 3600 continuous MAX) No problem for normal 1 or 2 minute BF runs but have started sking the Buckethead Barefoot Endurance Race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRuLF0QTXb8&t=18s Now I have 38 miles at semicontinuous high RPM. A concern in the back of my head!! John |
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Lets go footin'
'86 Barefoot Nautique |
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Footer 1952
Newbie Joined: August-13-2010 Location: Somerset Cty Pa Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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Gary, I have done some EFI googling and did find some info that emissions are the big benefit, and that HP or low end torque is not really improved. However "instant starting" for me and anyone running my boat would be reassuring. John |
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Lets go footin'
'86 Barefoot Nautique |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10643 |
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I can hardly wait to hear Pete's answer since he's the one that brought it up |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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Oooh
John I encourage you to reconsider your apprehensions to rippems and let that thing spin. You are leaving a lot of performance on the table and as far as longevity and efficiency it can be argued your setup is counterproductive to that as well Hang with us and we should get all your issues addressed |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Footer 1952
Newbie Joined: August-13-2010 Location: Somerset Cty Pa Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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So Tom,
You're sayin 3600 RPM Bogus?? Surely the Wolfpack is way ahead of me! https://www.google.com/search?q=wolfpack+barefoot+boat&sxsrf=ALeKk02IifvIE1OWcGjz0eCMB4v9LHmg3g:1584828676751&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=n_Rf8EM69el31M%253A%252C6wrMasVmayWIIM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSasx9ZwPVnJLQR6le6AZB62rHknQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4z7ryyqzoAhW3lHIEHbUQBY8Q9QEwCXoECAcQBQ#imgrc=n_Rf8EM69el31M: Enlighten Me!! John |
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Lets go footin'
'86 Barefoot Nautique |
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nubf14
Newbie Joined: April-14-2020 Location: Fort Mill SC Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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I just finished my conversion (Holley Sniper EFI.) The first day on the lake was 6/3/2020 will keep everyone posted. The hardest part was the O2 sensor. I found this on eBay and was able to redrill all holes with 3/8 and make it fit perfectly.
https://www.ebay.com/i/222482543306 EFI installed https://photos.app.goo.gl/bRgMZNWoRFMbyMre7 I have to remove the manual fuel pump this week (left as a backup plan just in case the EFI install failed). I purchased as a marine kit from Holley but never got an answer back about the fuel pump being USCG approved. That is the only outstanding item of the install. If I find out unapproved I will buy a USCG pump. BTW runs way better than a carb but mine was in need of replacement ($735 vs $1235). Next up is DUI distributor but that is another season. 1986 CC Martinique (351W RH) |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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John!
My regrets missing your response,! it must have rolled under my view back in March! a few of us have spent lots to time in 454 boats and hearing them sing for a long tome, so a 15 pith prop is leaving a lot on the table. I know you have endurance in mind, but just be aware there is a point of diminishing returns and nothing is free,. RPMs itself wont hurt it.. Consider this....pick any loading, speed etc.the same amount energy had to get expended over time to do the same amount of work whether you go high rpm or low rpms. In the low rpm high pitch example, this means fewer power pulses per distance traveled, however each power pulse has to have more energy. therefore lower manifold vacuum, and higher side loads on the pistons. Also, there is a fixed power delivery available at each rpm. a 390HP engine 5000 may only have 230 available to you at 3600 rpm, that just wont pull 4-5 footers well. higher pitch and high rippems means less energy needed per power pulse, higher manifold vacuum, and more power available if you give it more throttle, read responsiveness. it really doesn't same much fuel and isnt that hard on the engine.. One could argue easier. I think efi wont fix any dullness, it a gearing issue. EFI wont give you 400 hp at 3600 to pull 4-5 footers. Only forced induction can do that. let her rip! we can consult on the carb issues |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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rosconole
Gold Member Joined: May-10-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 758 |
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Interested in how it runs under 160 degrees where the learn mode open /closed loop starts typically Have you had it under load on lake yet? Pretty much any drop in efi walbro style pump will be USCG cert. the in line probably should be , Probably depends on where you mount it really. Glad to see it running!
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1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee
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nubf14
Newbie Joined: April-14-2020 Location: Fort Mill SC Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Good day on the lake (6/4/2020) and 160 is hard in my boat. I have to run about 3400 for 10 mins to get 160 or greater (no skiers today). It starts well (better than carb) but is still working on cold idle. IAC is working to hard but EFI table is not complete. Also, little stubble from neutral to forward/reverse. I have to advance that fuel curve so it does not stubble. Once in gear, best throttle response I have ever had (full to idle or idle to full). I do have to adjust the carb spring as a little too strong and rolls back the tach/speed I set. My feeling is 15-25 hours and should be running like a new boat.
So review so far: cost ease of installation performance I have read a lot about O2 sensors going bad so the jury is out on that piece of equipment. |
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Darrell Sanderlin
1986 CC Martinique Lake Wylie, SC |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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I don’t understand this. Why?? |
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nubf14
Newbie Joined: April-14-2020 Location: Fort Mill SC Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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I don't know either been trying to figure it out. I think my thermostat may be sticking (full open). I will know better after the weekend. Never worried that much about temp before as long as it was not hot.
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Darrell Sanderlin
1986 CC Martinique Lake Wylie, SC |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Would have to be I would think if it’s even in there.
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rosconole
Gold Member Joined: May-10-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 758 |
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I saw one of the rocker crawler guys used something similar to this linkage to not have such a hard out of the gate throttle with all 4 butterfly's open..https://www.efisystempro.com/sniper-efi-progressive-linkage-kit
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1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee
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