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How is Delta Prop with CNC repairs?

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    Posted: October-31-2011 at 6:11pm
Just curious. I'm doing a from-the-coupler-back drivetrain refresh next spring and want to send my 422 in for a tune-up. Any recent experiences with Delta on CNC prop repair/tune-ups?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-31-2011 at 6:22pm
I've sent 3 props to Delta to be repaired, one which was a CNC, and have been happy with both their price and quality of work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-31-2011 at 6:34pm
I haven't used delta, but I used ACME at the end of the season. They were quick and the prop came back looking good.. couldnt tell how it ran out though cause using the very large pitch backup prop was not well received by the motor.   I figured going back to the source couldnt hurt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimsport93 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-31-2011 at 8:33pm
Joel, had a freind of mine mangle my 422 back in '09 (along with the strut and the shaft). Sent the prop to Delta. Got it back in a week. Been running it ever since with no problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-31-2011 at 9:34pm
Delta Prop in Lodi CA?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 86BFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2011 at 12:19pm
Delta Propeller Co. in Cleves, OH (Cincinnati)(also a site sponsor) is the source for ACME, OJ and Michigan Wheel props for your Correct Craft. Use Coupon Code DP5CCF08 to receive an exclusive discount.

I've used them with good luck, but it was not a CNC prop.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2011 at 1:08am
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

I haven't used delta, but I used ACME at the end of the season. They were quick and the prop came back looking good.. couldnt tell how it ran out though cause using the very large pitch backup prop was not well received by the motor.   I figured going back to the source couldnt hurt.


Haven't had the same luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WAKE-up Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2011 at 12:12pm
i have used 2x- 1 for 542 that had some edge rash tried file 1st but little vibration remained sent to delta 109$ later runs clean and true
bought used 612 for short $ on ski it again had sent direct to delta for tune up before i ever saw not sure why rpm stayed same at wot as 470 on 99 sport w/ gt40 but i do get 1mph+ didn't have orig 612 baseline to compare pre repair
was told ccf discount *only applied to new prop purchases*
have a couple of other props that i would send there before any where else particularly when local shop i contacted wanted $140 for repair to 13x16 oj though he did indicate that it would be shined up real nice -polish this as i'll send to delta
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2011 at 6:59pm
Paul, was that NE Propeller? That's who I used to use. They do a great job, but they aren't even close on price.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RainDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2011 at 11:44pm
Joel,

While I hate to bash a sponsor, I wasn't happy with Delta. I sent the prop from the SAN in to Delta to get fixed. It came back an entirely different prop. Lost 9 mph on top end and hit the rev limiter at 3/4 throttle.

I used a local guy for my 2nd prop for the SAN who specializes in off shore racing custom props and is an ACME dealer. Now I lost 800 rpm at WOT and 5 mph from peak.

The only thing I can try next is to send them to ACME to get them fixed or maybe swapped for new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WAKE-up Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 1:01am
bruce that was in fact NE prop, was working nearby and thought i'd drop off gps couldn't find the place- works out of small garage behind a bldg, low overhead and still looking for 2x the price?
for all the touts of cnc accuracy strange how "same" prop will generate different results on others "same " boat-model, driveline
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 2:05am
The last prop I sent to Acme came back with some odd vibes/harmonics. Sent it back again and it came back again the same way. So, that option is out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 11:05am
I had one Acme repaired by a shop up in NH... Accu- something? Fancy measuring equipment, etc. Prop worked great, but the repair wasnt cheap ($140ish). The last prop I had reworked was done by Acme and it came back just fine... no strange vibrations and pushed the BFN as fast as it had ever gone. Seems like its luck of the draw sometimes?

As I understand it, the Acmes (and maybe all modern CNC props) require special pitch blocks. If a shop has them, they should be able to repair a CNC prop as good as a hand finished one. Otherwise, there is nothing special about a CNC prop repair- the tools and methods are the same for all props.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 4:59pm
Joel, ACME outsources the repair of their props. Tim is correct on the special blocks, there are actually only 8 (or maybe 9 guys) in the US that have (made the investment in) the blocks. One of those guys is right here in Racine. Unfortunately, I have had to have both my ACME 422 props repaired. The guy does a great job, cost is about $180 both props have come back and worked very well. If you want I can pick your prop up in Schaumburg and drop it off.   Just let me know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 5:01pm
Sent it off to Delta. There was nothing wrong with the prop, really- but I figured I'm replacing the DS/Coupling and strut bushings in the spring so I may as well have the prop tuned up.

So, if Delta is listening here- there is a nice 422 headed your way from the greater Chicago metropolitan area and I'm SURE you'll do a great job so I have no worries! [cough, cough, nudge nudge]



DAMN Steve. Missed your post by minutes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 6:06pm
Fox Lake Prop, now in Spring Grove

"We are equipped with a large variety of different pitch blocks, which enables us to repair all types of propellers, even ACME props."

Jim has a winter discount, really cool guy too. He can weld anything, and build you a cool suit of armour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 6:08pm
Delta Propeller in Lodi CA has the Acme blocks and my friends boat shop has sent 40 or 50 props for repair and has no complaints. I just had my new Acme fixed there. I had just got the new prop and on the second time out hit something that bent the rudder and bent all three blades without leaving a mark on the prop, the guy at Delta put it on the balancer and it swung heavy on one of the blades which had no grind mark- meaning it had not been balanced by Acme correctly in the first place- then he put it on the blocks and the blades were about an inch off- I had it back better than new in 3 more days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Fox Lake Prop, now in Spring Grove

"We are equipped with a large variety of different pitch blocks, which enables us to repair all types of propellers, even ACME props."

Jim has a winter discount, really cool guy too. He can weld anything, and build you a cool suit of armour.


Great. Another late but helpful post. Keep em' coming guys
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by M3Fan M3Fan wrote:

There was nothing wrong with the prop, really- but I figured I'm replacing the DS/Coupling and strut bushings in the spring so I may as well have the prop tuned up.

[whisper]Waste of money! Next time youve got $100 burning a hole in your pocket, send it to me![/whisper]

Hows that for helpful?

In all seriousness, I would think that having a prop repaired (ie, whaled on with a hammer) would take more life out of it than continued use. Next time, unless you have some sort of damage that you need to have fixed, dont bother getting it "tuned up".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 8:10pm
I have a hard time believing a prop can push 2500 lbs+ through the water for 5 years, 350hrs and still be the exact same shape it was out of the box.

We've had lots of idle-speed hits on old stumps, etc., but nothing that noticeably dinged the prop.

I figure if I'm putting 500.00 into the drivetrain I'll do the hundo on the actual thing that makes the boat move in the water.

Ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-03-2011 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by M3Fan M3Fan wrote:

There was nothing wrong with the prop, really- but I figured I'm replacing the DS/Coupling and strut bushings in the spring so I may as well have the prop tuned up.

[whisper]Waste of money! Next time youve got $100 burning a hole in your pocket, send it to me![/whisper]

Hows that for helpful?

In all seriousness, I would think that having a prop repaired (ie, whaled on with a hammer) would take more life out of it than continued use. Next time, unless you have some sort of damage that you need to have fixed, dont bother getting it "tuned up".

Joel,
We still need to meet up "up north". When it does happen and you come by, bring your extra cash with you. I'd be more than happy to relieve you of that burden.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2011 at 5:37pm
For the skeptics out there, they just finished with the prop and it was definitely not in spec when they got it. So, either I'm being lied to by them or my suspicion that a prop might not be perfect even though it looks "OK" to the naked eye has been confirmed. Maybe this extremely precise, thin metal thing that moves my boat through the water pulling course skiers for 6 seasons might have needed some beating around with some hammers. Maybe I haven't "wasted" my money? What a concept? Time will tell, of course, if I've once again foolishly done worthless preventative or over the top maintenance- something I know is rare for this group of CC fans.

Eager to try it next spring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2011 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by M3Fan M3Fan wrote:

I have a hard time believing a prop can push 2500 lbs+ through the water for 5 years, 350hrs and still be the exact same shape it was out of the box.

Joel, this was the part that I disagreed with.^^^

Originally posted by M3Fan M3Fan wrote:

We've had lots of idle-speed hits on old stumps

This on the other hand, is a different story. Any strike is likely to do *some* damage, and sometimes you cant see it with the naked eye.

Originally posted by M3Fan M3Fan wrote:

it was definitely not in spec when they got it

A statement like this needs to be quantified... what is the "spec", what was "out" and by how much? Were they measuring to ISO 484/2? Class I?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2011 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by M3Fan M3Fan wrote:

I have a hard time believing a prop can push 2500 lbs+ through the water for 5 years, 350hrs and still be the exact same shape it was out of the box.

Joel, this was the part that I disagreed with.^^^


I certainly can't argue 100% either way as far as general prop use causing metal deformation to some degree over time without a more solid understanding of the physics at play.

Is it physically possible for a prop to change shape at all from hard use? If not, that's all I need to be convinced as I'm no engineer by trade. If nothing else it's an interesting topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2011 at 7:06pm
I remember one of the arguments for SS props when they came out in the '90's was that they did not flex under a load. If Nibral props actually flex, wouldn't that not only cause the prop to change shape, but to also weaken?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2011 at 7:51pm
If the prop actually permanently changed shape no matter how little, ie underwent permanent deformation as a result of standard usage then it would not last very long. The fatigue loading force needs to be far away from the amount of force that would cause permanent deformation if you want to be far enough down the S-N curve for it to approach a limit.   Considering the number of stress concentrations left by the machining process, I am going to assume the loading is in fact low enough relative to yield strength that the engineers considered the effects of the stress concentrations trivial and fatigue not a relevant factor over the expected life.

In non engineer speak take your paper clip flex it back and forth a few thousand times.. no problem if you never flex it enough to bend it permanently. But if you do bend it permanently no matter how little it will break within relatively few cycles.

Long term material creep changing the shape I deem not likely although theoretically possible... not likely due to the low temperature of use and the fact that the loads are not steady nor of considerable duration and the material is not particularly susceptible to creep.

Now the prop might start to flex easier over the years due to any residual work hardening effects slowly dissipating over time, but I would submit with a CNC prop there would not have been considerable work hardening to begin with. Either way you are not likely to get enough work hardening from someone hitting it against the block to make the rework effective at restoring any youthful vigor

So to this engineer anyway … no way I would have anyone take a hammer to anything that hadn’t already hit something harder than the water at some point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-15-2011 at 8:31pm
Joe, great explanation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2011 at 5:00pm
Joe, good explanation. The nibral props seem to last forever and the SS props that came out in the 90's actually had failing issues, so perhaps a little flexability is a good thing?
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