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Help Troubleshoot Electrical

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    Posted: February-21-2012 at 2:26am
Hello!
I have a '93 Ski Nautique.
The engine runs great for the most part. The issue I'm having is that sometimes the boat suddenly dies. All power is dead. I'll be going along fine at speed and then suddenly... all electrical power dies and the boat shuts down. When this happens it sometimes won't come back right away and I sit waiting, other times I can turn the key and start it up immediately. I've led myself to believe that jiggling the dash seems to help. My guess is that I have corrosion of some sort making a poor connection behind the dash. I also notice that occasionally the tachometer will jump. I have a kicker stereo amp installed but the issue happens with or without the music turned on.

So I'm looking for advice on how to tackle this problem. I own a multimeter and am willing to follow instructions but I don't have a lot of experience troubleshooting this sort of thing. I'd appreciate guidance of how to t/s electrically or what are recommendations on how to clean connections, or how to go about fixing the issue.

Thanks for your time. This is a great site. Hope I get another round of great answers/ideas...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-21-2012 at 4:02am
I think your '93 has the same "Ignition" switch which is actually the "master" power switch on the dashboard (not to be confused with the key switch for starting and running the engine). Since it dies when running (when the alternator could power everything if you had a bad connection to the battery (such as when you go to start it, everything dies)), it seems like somehow the "master" power is cutting out. Granted, I've never been running the boat and pushed the "ignition" master switch off to see what happens, but I would assume that it kills everything Since your banging on the dash "seems" to help, it could very well be corrosion, loose connections, or a failing "ignition" master power switch.
Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-21-2012 at 4:16am
Sorry, hit reply too soon. If you want to check this switch,
1. first disconnect the negative terminal to the battery.
2. Undo the four thumb screws that secure the dash pod to the dash.
3. Lift up so you can see/get to the back of the ignition switch.
4. If helpful, on the front of the switch, unscrew the retaining sleeve and push the switch back through the hole.
5. Check all of the terminals to see if there is any corrosion, loose wires, etc. They should all be clean. If there is some corrosion, you can use emery cloth, sandpaper, etc. to clean off the terminals. Sometimes pulling them off and putting them back on will clean them up enough to cure an intermittent problem. If they are badly corroded, you might have to cut off the connectors off of the wires, srip the wires, and put new connectors on. Any hardware store will have the appropriate connectors and crimping tools. But if there is that much corrosion on the wires/connectors, the switch might also be suspect.
6. Assuming there is no loose wires, etc., if you want to test the switch, you can put the multimeter on the ohm (continuity) setting (confirming that you have disconnected the battery first), and then test resistance on the battery power side of the switch (big red wire) and the other side with the switch on and off. That might be a little hard to do; if you have alligator clips on the end of your multitester, that will make it much easier. With the switch on, wiggle the wires, the connectors, and the switch terminals and see if the readings change (they shouldn't).

If this isn't the problem, let me know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-21-2012 at 9:09am
Dielectric grease after the clean up. I suggest not getting the cheap "Stacon" connectors from the hardware store. An auto supply will have a better grade with better plating and some even have heat shrink insulation on them.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-21-2012 at 10:53am
redundent, but it helps me...look at electricity in the terms of water, it wasnt my strongest suit for many years, mind boggling...but what i do, is look at the battery as the water tower (storage) I look at switches as (valves) resistors as a (dam) altenator as (nuke Plant to generate)
always start at the battery, is it full? does it have 12.69 volts? then move to the ignition switch, if you turn the key, are you getting voltage (water) out of the terminal, if you do then you move on down the river checking for beaver dams (corrsion)
look at it this way because ir all relates
"the things you own will start to own you"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCFcourt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-21-2012 at 10:52pm
Thanks for the replies! This makes sense to me so far. I plan to pull it apart this weekend and follow the steps listed. I definitely have the 'master' switch that kills the boat... learned this once by accident when I pushed it while driving - kills everything instantly. It would make sense that I have an intermittent problem related to it... will look for corrosion around it.

If that all looks good, I'm worried about next steps for troubleshooting as it seems after that switch that the tangle of wires grows quickly to all the other gauges...

Any specific dielectric grease product recommended? If I see a bunch of corrosion, do I use the sandpaper until it's shiny on the metal - or is that going too far? Maybe I should look into buying a new switch now to have something to compare it to...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-21-2012 at 11:04pm
Court,
"shiny" is beyond whats needed. Just clean up to some decent looking metal. The dielectric grease will be found at you local auto supply. Don't just go out and get a new switch until you confirm the problem. We don't want you to become simply a "parts changer"! The mutimeter is the best tool for diagnosing an electrical problem. If you don't have one, get one. The basic meter is only around $25 and you can use it on your car and the house as well. They all come with instructions just in case you've never used one before. Measure on one end and per Eric's analogy, if the water does come out the other end at the same rate then a valve (resistance/corrosion) is partially closed!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2012 at 12:06am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

if the water does come out the other end at the same rate


We used to just cut a hole at the low spot and let the water out I think I saw Curley do it to a boat one time too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2012 at 4:36am
I agree with the water analogy; makes it very easy to understand.

If it was me and based on the symptoms, I'd say check the ignition (master) switch (I have no idea why they labeled it "ignition"), since turning that switch off duplicates all of your symptoms (no power to anything, not just a killed engine) and at the moment, I can't think of another possible cause that mimics all of the symptoms.

Based on your symptoms, you can probably rule out the following (although each are very easy to check so if it isn't the switch, I'd do these as well):

* A battery issue (weak battery) would cause it to not start, rather than start, then die, and then restart a moment or two later. However, with everything off, check the voltage. A fully charged battery should show over 12VDC (assuming it hasn't sat for a while--this is a good test to do right after turning the engine off--my battery will start my engine at 10.5 volts although if it has been sitting that long, I usually put a trickle charger on it the day before).

* Bad battery connection at the terminals: Sometimes (the reason escapes me since there's so much surface area contact) the connection at the terminal can go bad (internal corrosion at the terminal) such that while everything is powered but the engine is off, when you turn the key, everything dies) no power to anything). You have to pull, clean (or at least turn back and forth) the terminals (happens more often if the terminal is not tight). However, unless your alternator is also bad, this would not cause the engine and everything to die while the engine is running, since the alternator is supplying power to all systems and charging the battery. If the engine is running and the connection to the battery dies, it will keep running until you shut it off, at which time you will have no power to anything.

* Alternator: Your battery will discharge and ultimately you won't be able to start the engine if the alternator isn't running. That wouldn't cause the engine to suddenly die yet allow you to start it again after banging or waiting a bit. But very easy to check. As with the battery test above, put the volt meter between the two battery terminals (DC volts). Check voltage with everything off. The battery will read anywhere between south of 11vdc to 12.5 or so depending on if the battery is completely charged. While leaving the meter on the posts, start the engine. The voltage should drop momentarily, then bounce up to 13.5 to over 14v. If you get voltage at the battery that is higher with the engine running than when it is off, your alternator is putting out power (technically, you need an Ammeter to test the amount of current that the alternator outputs, but as long as your voltage at the battery is in the 13+range, you are good -- I'd expect it to be 14 if your battery is fully charged).

* Master fuse in battery box: This has the same symptoms of a bad battery connection. If it goes out (looses conductivity when the engine is off, nothing will work. If it looses connection when the engine (and alternator) is running, the engine will continue to run.

One other thing that these boats sometimes have issues with is ground connections (Perfect Pass doesn't like low voltage, usually the easiest fix is to run a ground wire from PP directly to the battery although I ended up having to use a relay with direct power from the battery). Poor grounds (corrosion, etc) at the dash would not normally cause your symptoms, but if you have erratic tach readings, etc., one thing to check is all of the ground connections. As mentioned before, a lot of the time, the connections can be improved just by pulling the connectors off the tab and putting them back on again. The power for the dash actually goes from the battery all the way back to the back of the engine, and then back up to the dash. So it has a long way to go, especially when there is no metal frame to use as a ground.   

Back to what Eric said, start at the beginning and work your way through (my money is on the ignition master switch / wires). I can't tell you how many times I've looked for complicated, esoteric causes when it ended up being something extremely simple, such as my boat suddenly not starting (cranking over), checking almost everything, rowing it back to the launch ramp, taking it home, doing all sorts of electrical tests, etc., and while sitting in the drivers seat frustrated, glancing down, and seeing that the kill switch lanyard had been bumped just enough to open the contacts in the switch. One push of the lanyard and everything was fine (a great relief, but a lot of wasted time because I didn't look at the obvious first). More stories where that came from! :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2012 at 4:45am
Also, as Peter said, you don't want to be throwing parts at it (I still do that too often). That said, I did have one of the breaker switches (not the ignition master switch but one of the other identical switches--probably to the heater) go out, so I got two; one to replace that one, and one spare (since I do not want to get stuck if the ignition master switch goes out. With enough use, age, and moisture, some will eventually go. My boat is 16 years old now, so maybe not a bad idea to get an extra one assuming the switch is the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2012 at 5:25am
My brother-in-law has a '92 ski that he had similar issues with. Boat ran great until it usually got close to WOT and then just completely dies. Immediately restarts and runs perfect. Run up to barefoot speed and it would completely die again. Like soemone just truned off the ignition switch.
Turns out that a loose connection under the dash was the culprit. He stumbled onto it by accident actually and he has no idea what the connection was for but it fixed the problem.
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2012 at 8:48am
I don't believe anyone ha asked about the actual ignition system yet. What is it on a 93? Another Protech problem?

Also when cleaning up the connections, don't forget the molded multi connector rubber plugs at the engine harness. I find them green inside may times.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Link Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2012 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by backfoot100 backfoot100 wrote:

My brother-in-law has a '92 ski that he had similar issues with. Boat ran great until it usually got close to WOT and then just completely dies. Immediately restarts and runs perfect. Run up to barefoot speed and it would completely die again. Like soemone just truned off the ignition switch.
Turns out that a loose connection under the dash was the culprit. He stumbled onto it by accident actually and he has no idea what the connection was for but it fixed the problem.


I have an old SeaDoo that did that last year. Frustrating!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCFcourt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2012 at 12:38pm
Update...
I was able to go into the boat and found a few things.
Cleaned up the terminals on the battery and put dielectric grease on them. Battery read 12.0 volts between positive and negative terminals.
Found some corrosion on the master ignition switch (not the key turn switch) behind the dashboard and replaced those connections. Cleaned up several of the other connections. Also found that the connection between the ground and the tachometer was loose enough that upon jiggling the wire it pulled apart. Clipped and reconnected that wire.
Voltage on each of the switches now reads 11.8 vs 12.0 across battery posts. I would think this is very acceptable....?

One set of questions I did develop however, relates to the switches for the lights. With the navigation switch OFF I get 11.5 volts between the positive side of the switch and the negative battery post. All the other switches (master ignition, blower, etc) are still 11.8. I also noticed what I think is a diode between the nav and anchor light switch. When I turned on the switch for the lights the voltage dropped to about 10.5, which I'm assuming is loss due to the lights themselves but wouldn't expect that. I would think this is not normal and could possibly be causing low voltage across my lights and be the partial reason that all electrical on the boat flickers when I turn the nav lights on.
Is that really an issue and if so do I have a circuit wiring/connection problem or a light component problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crobi2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2012 at 1:52pm
I think the diode just allows current to go FROM the nav to the anchor lights so both turn on for nav, but prevent the front nav light from coming on when you have just turned on the anchor light.

12v is actually a little low for a fully charged battery. You might want to check your alternator belt and such to be sure that the battery is getting charged by the alternator.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2012 at 2:13pm
Since your battery is 12v with engine off, that indicates that your battery and charging system are probably fine.

On the cutting out, I suspect the corrosion at the ignition (master power push button) switch was probably the culprit. One way to find out :-) (on the water testing is always fun!).

On the Nav/anchor lights, the diode is for wiring simplicity. It keeps the current from flowing to the nav lights when the anchor switch is on, but lets current flow to the anchor light when the nav light is on. A diode will cause some voltage drop, so if you were measuring after the diode with the nav lights on, I'd expect a drop like that. You didn't mention where you measured it from, but I'm assuming it was on the positive terminal of both light switches. If so, I'd suspect that you may have some corrosion on the power lead to those switches, especially since it reads low with no load. When you turn the lights on, there is additional load, and because of the corrosion (or weakened wire), there is increased resistance, dropping the voltage.

What do you mean by "all electrical on the boat flickers when I turn the nav lights on"? Do all of the gauges flicker/bounce? As far as current draw at the dash, after the starting circuit in the key switch, the highest draw (unless you have a heater or mega-watt stereo) are the lights; all of the gauges use very little current so they could move slightly when a higher current device or light is turned on.

I'd strongly suggest that you run a good ground wire (I used 14 gauge solid copper house wire) directly from the battery to the negative terminal in the dash pod where all negative wires terminate. A poor weak ground is not uncommon on these boats. That will cause increased resistance and dropping voltage as more current tries to flow. You can hide the wire on the passenger side of the left driver kick panen or at the bottom edge so it is not really visible.

My heater, powered subwoofer, and PerfectPass all are run through relays. I use automotive horn relays since they are sealed (the sub-woofer has one built in). The power from the dash switches or the stereo turn on the relays (very low current draw), and the relays are powered directly from the battery (with in line fuses).

You measured voltage from the positive sides of the various switches to the negative battery terminal. If you measure from the same positive side of the switches to the negative terminal in the dash pod, I would expect you'd see a drop. Turn on a few devices, and it will drop further.

One other thing you can do is to check the connections at the back of the engine since both the positive and negative power to the dash pod comes from there. Since it is in the bilge, it is subject to more moisture and therefore more corrosion.

By the way, someone who can recognize what a diode is knows more about electricity and wiring than he leads on....   :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2012 at 2:39pm
Interesting on the battery voltage. If it has sat for a few weeks, 12v isn't surprising to me since I've seen it around 11 or so when heading to the pond when it has sat for a few weeks in the garage (granted, I may have had the stereo on while working in the garage so drained it a little that way). I just went to check mine since it has not been charged in a month since I started to replace the heads. And it is about 12.4, which surprised me since it has been sitting for a month. I guess that stereo drains more than I thought.... :-) I'd still test the voltage while running and after shutting down before I'd suspect the battery (and the battery wouldn't cause the engine cut out).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2012 at 5:53pm
I added a new ground to the dash coming from the engine and it helped quite a bit. I also plan to add a new positive in the same way:
Added new Ground to Dash
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2012 at 3:07pm
Nice job!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2012 at 9:04am
Fill me in on this component that is thought to be a diode. A picture would be great.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2012 at 3:08am
Hopefully CCFcourt has got his dash open so he can take a picture. Otherwise I'll try to get in but it won't happen until after I've finished the work replacing the heads on my engine and it is running well. Hopefully that will happen by this weekend.
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