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Damper Replacement - Centering and torquing bolts

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    Posted: April-24-2012 at 6:26pm
Getting ready to replace damper plate on 351 Pleasurecraft Windsor in a 1979 Southwind Correctcraft. How many ft/lbs of torque should be put on the bolts when bolting it to the flywheel?
I have read in a prior forum that it is better to center the damper plate by tightening the damper plate up via a sight hole drilled through the bellhousing. Are you just bolting the plate to the flywheel very loose until the tranny/bellhousing is bolted on and then tightening the damper plate through the sight hole? How necessary is this procedure instead of just bolting the damper plate snug,(torqued), on the flywheel first and then installing the tranny/bellhousing?
Also, I got the plate through skidim and have read some negative things about this plate from them. This replacement is round instead of triangular. Any thoughts on this before I install it.
Brad Davis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2012 at 7:00pm
Are your bolts holding the dampner to the flywheel shouldered?

The Sachs plate is the best one.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote storm34 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2012 at 7:06pm
Brad, I purchased the one Pete referred to when I rebuilt my 302. Around $60 if I remember right? Much better than Skidim could do.

I didn't know about the process of tightening the bolts once the fly wheel was on, I simply locked them down and wrestled the trans and bell housing on at one time. It took a few choice words, but everything went back together just fine.

Going on 20 hours since my rebuild and haven't seen/heard any problems yet.

Hopefully it's just an easier process to lock them down once the trans is mated to the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2012 at 7:21pm
Brad,
Eric our resident trans expert here on CCfan likes to finish tightening the damper after the trans/bell housing is bolted up. He typically does it through the starter mounting hole. The reason I asked if the bolts were shouldered, is I do not feel the after process is needed if they are shouldered. The shoulder on the bolts is a tight fit into the dampner plate and even go into a slight counterbore in the flywheel. That will align it and my opinion.

The bolts Skidim sells are shouldered.

Did you match the dampner to the trans you have? A 79 should have the B/W velvet drive. The splines are different than a PCM trans!

BTW, you should have asked us first!

torque specs


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2012 at 7:34pm
Guys on here say to install the damper a little loose, then tighten the bolts through the starter hole. How can they be torqued?

BUT - I use a clutch alignment tool, plastic tools are only a couple bucks a better universal tool is maybe 25ish. I think the bolts are torqued to 35 ft lbs but I'm not positive and red loctite (271 i think)

I've R&R ed a few engines and tranmissions it works and only custed a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2012 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by Waterdog Waterdog wrote:

Guys on here say to install the damper a little loose, then tighten the bolts through the starter hole. How can they be torqued?

With a 1/4" "clicker" type torque wrench:



Most of your better torque wrenches are "clickers"


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2012 at 11:14pm
The holes in the round damper plate that SKI Dim sells were larger than the holes in the original triangular damper. There was at least .010 inch clearance using their shoulder screws, as I recall.   

I recommend tightening after assembly, otherwise it will be off center.

I tried to dial-indicate it to get on-center, but got nowhere after an hour of tapping it back & forth.   

The torque should be about 25 ft lbs., at least that is the torque for a pressure plate per my old Chiltons.

I'm not sure you can get that much torque accessing through the starter hole. I drilled an access hole, but that is probably excessive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradd29607 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 12:16am
It seems like an access hole would be easier than going through the starter hole to tighten the bolts in the damper. I should be able to torque them down through an access hole. I did not purchase new bolts - should I have?
The damper from skidim was around $200. Is the sachs far superior in quality? In what way? The metal, springs?, and if so, why is it less expensive?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 6:37am
tryin to re-invent the wheel again   lol
if possible, it is best to tighten the bolts after trans is piloted, I have seen the input bearings walk out of their bore in the past from a mis-aligned dampner, not many, but that one could be you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 7:07am
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

The holes in the round damper plate that SKI Dim sells were larger than the holes in the original triangular damper. There was at least .010 inch clearance using their shoulder screws, as .

The last dampner I replaced was in the Tique. I used the Sachs triangular and the original bolts. The shoulders were snug to the point that they barely fit the holes.

The original damper was the round one. All the spring pocket seats were distorted due to I feel the light gauge material used. The springs were broken as well. Looking at the design real close, the round damper uses spring pockets formed by stamping a recess in the sheet metal halves. It didn't even look like they made an attempt to make these sprimg pockets square and round at the top and bottom where the springs seat (tough to do by stamping). Being in the metal stamping field and using tons of springs in dies, I know what happens when you place a side force on the top and bottom of a spring - they break! The Sachs plate uses a different spring retaining method. It's actually a punched slot for the springs to sit and puts equal pressure on the top and bottom (no side force) of the springs. Plus, they punch this slot and use a portion of the material to form retaining side guides.



$90 at E Basic Power


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 9:38am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

The holes in the round damper plate that SKI Dim sells were larger than the holes in the original triangular damper. There was at least .010 inch clearance using their shoulder screws, as .

The last dampner I replaced was in the Tique. I used the Sachs triangular and the original bolts. The shoulders were snug to the point that they barely fit the holes.

Same here on the Sachs dampers Ive installed. No need to torque after installing the tranny- no play in the bolts/holes. I torqued it down before putting the tranny and bellhousing back on.

Chris has the 1.23 PCM in his '89 though... I havent toyed with that damper before. Might be a different animal than the Velvet Drives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malibud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 4:18pm
Pete Just to make sure since it is not returnable but this is the place for my 85' 2001 with a borg w. 1:1 trans right ?
also will it solve my dirty neutral ?
thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 4:46pm
Dan,
What ever plate you get (we suggest the Sachs), just make sure it matches the trans. As mentioned, the splines on the input shaft to the trans are different on the Velvet and the PCM.

Note the picture of the Sachs plate. There are 7 different mounting hole patterns so it will match almost any flywheel but, do check the description to make sure.

No, the damper plate will not cure your dirty neutral. That's an internal trans problem. The dampner is simply a means of coupling the engine to the trans. It's sort of a flex coupling.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C-Bass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 4:46pm
The damper will not solve your dirty neutral. I believe warped clutch plates are the cause of that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 4:59pm
Yes, its the right damper. No, it wont solve a dirty neutral.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HatterBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2012 at 11:38pm
What are the tell-tell signs that a damper needs replacing? I have my engine out and while I don't wont to replace good parts, I don't want to reinstall with bad parts either. Is there somethings I should look for?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2012 at 6:32am
rule of thumb, if engine is out, its out for a reason and probably has alot of hours, so does the damper...its a heavy wear item
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HatterBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2012 at 9:20am
Thanks Eric, I will look for one. It seems here that most prefer the Sachs plate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2012 at 11:09am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by Waterdog Waterdog wrote:

Guys on here say to install the damper a little loose, then tighten the bolts through the starter hole. How can they be torqued?

With a 1/4" "clicker" type torque wrench:



Most of your better torque wrenches are "clickers"


Its a whole lot easier to tighten them than to torque the bolts correctly.

To torque the dampener to fly wheel on a 351w (pcm) through the starter hole (starter facing fwd) use a 3in extended crows foot and an extension make sure it stays at a 90* angle to the torque wrench. IF the crows foot is not at 90* the torque will be multiplied and the bolts will be over torque.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2012 at 7:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dwcar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2018 at 10:09pm
I bought the Sachs damper. The original was bolted down with 6 bolts. Looks to me that the new Sachs will only take 3. Is this correct??
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Yes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fanofccfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-02-2019 at 12:04pm
I assume its safe to say the above damper will fit the 351 commander as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-02-2019 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by fanofccfan fanofccfan wrote:

I assume its safe to say the above damper will fit the 351 commander as well?


It'll fit.

You can get an ALTDA-106 that needs trimming for about 80 bucks at ebasicpower or an ALTDA-106A that's pre trimmed for 20 bucks more if you don't want to do the trimming.   

Prices went up a little over the years
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fanofccfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-02-2019 at 3:32pm
Thank you!
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