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Stringer/ Floor Replacement Lessons Learned

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Kjerchinger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kjerchinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 12:00pm
I would like to chime in about the FOAM, NO FAOM Issue.
my understanding of the correct way to foam under a floor is after the floor is re-installed.
say what ? yes, I was taught be the guy that was a former owner of the American Skier brand. he walked me through the floor replacement of my 85 AM skier.
what he explained, is if you install the foam first, then cut it off at the floor level, you are opening up the closed cell foam by cutting it off. maybe you are sealing if again if you glass directly over it as was originally done at the factory. I am not an expert on that.
how to install foam after the floor ? the hardest part is jacking up the front of the boat, maybe 6 to 8 feet of so. this can be done by putting blocks under the trailer axel, then raising the front of the trailer. I had access to a fork lift,
prior to this, you drill 2" holes every 16" or so, between the Hull and the secondary stringers, this enables you to pour in the pre mixed foam into the holes, starting in the back of the boat until the foam comes out the hole, then moving forward to the next hole and so on.
when complete, lower the boat. once the foam has set up. cut it off at the floor, and batch with cloth and resin.
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timr71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 12:25pm
You mean Ron? The AS guy? in this video:

Boat Foam

fixed link...I hope
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgray007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 12:31pm
I would agree with your overall description of how to foam the floor. Just be careful not to explode the "chamber" you intend to fill. The foam creates a large amount of force if it has no place to go...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kjerchinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 12:43pm
yep, Ron Tannis, great guy !
he owned the brand until he sold it to Elan Boats
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kjerchinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 12:46pm
Agreed,

my explanation was pretty abbreviated. the foam needs to be poured in slowly, making sure not to pour in to quickly, or to excessively. .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Kjerchinger Kjerchinger wrote:

I would like to chime in about the FOAM, NO FAOM Issue.
my understanding of the correct way to foam under a floor is after the floor is re-installed.
say what ? yes, I was taught be the guy that was a former owner of the American Skier brand. he walked me through the floor replacement of my 85 AM skier.
what he explained, is if you install the foam first, then cut it off at the floor level, you are opening up the closed cell foam by cutting it off. maybe you are sealing if again if you glass directly over it as was originally done at the factory. I am not an expert on that.
how to install foam after the floor ? the hardest part is jacking up the front of the boat, maybe 6 to 8 feet of so. this can be done by putting blocks under the trailer axel, then raising the front of the trailer. I had access to a fork lift,
prior to this, you drill 2" holes every 16" or so, between the Hull and the secondary stringers, this enables you to pour in the pre mixed foam into the holes, starting in the back of the boat until the foam comes out the hole, then moving forward to the next hole and so on.   

I totally agree with the concept of foaming after the sole (floor) is in place but, that's assuming you are going to lay a ply (or composite). Many here are going back with the design that CC used with glass over the foam but I like the idea of using an actual sole. The self skinning of the foam inside a cavity provides additional sealing from moisture. I do prefer injecting rather than pouring. Less holes, less waste and a better fill over the pour into a tilted cavity. I have injected thousands of board feet of Handi Foam brand with fantastic results.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kjerchinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 5:48pm
interesting, thanks for your comments.
I used the Part A-B foam method, poured in.
so with this Handi Foam, with smaller holes, is it harder to not blow out the floor by injecting too much ?
my floor was plywood on my AM skier, now I am doing my sisters 83 SN, I am planning on using 1/2" foam board except under the seats, here I will use 2 layers of Cossa board.
will the handi foam work ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgray007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 5:55pm
I would have used that type of foam vs the a-b pourable type but it just wasn't available when I did the stringer job. Spray foam has gotten very affordable in the last few years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Kjerchinger Kjerchinger wrote:

I am doing my sisters 83 SN, I am planning on using 1/2" foam board except under the seats, here I will use 2 layers of Cossa board.
will the handi foam work ?

Keith,
There is a learning curve determining how much foam to inject. If you do use the method, start with small amounts. If you do overfill, there is some pressure so I would not recommend the foam board. The Coosa or ply is a good idea. The kits come with extra nozzles so you can stop, let the foam kick and then go to the next cavity with another nozzle. They supply tho types of nozzles. One is for spraying and the other for injecting. The injection nozzle tip is made so you can add 1/4" ID poly tubing as an extension. I've gone up to a 3' extension without a problem. You can then get way back into a deep cavity.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 7:33pm
Here are some pic's of my 86 I did 8 years ago.. I am sure it is not the quality of some of the guys on this site (guys on here are expert craftsmen way above my pay grade). But she is more than solid. I use 3/4 inch plywood. you don't need that thick 1/2 is plenty. I chose not to rip out all the stringers - to scary for me (I didn't want to take the engine out). Lucky for me the main stringers where the engine was still in good shape. I took out what was bad or reinforced it. I mixed the resin with filler to thicken it to fill the gaps I had.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kjerchinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 7:47pm
Looks Solid, nice job Rob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kjerchinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 8:52pm
Thanks Peter-
Did I understand that the Spray Foam has become more reasonable over the years ? A quick online search I found it to be 500.00 per container... I don’t remember what I paid for the A-B pour type, but don’t recall it being anywhere near that much.. maybe by the time I get that far, sis will be umune to me ringing up her CC.
How many containers of the spray would I need ? More than 1 could be a deal breaker.
I will not call this project complete until foam of one sort or another is installed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 9:35pm
Foam comes in different sizes sized by board feet. Calculate what you need and go shopping.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgray007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 9:59am
When i was shopping the spray foam was closer to 1000 per container. the two-part is still cheaper but getting competitive with one another.

https://www.carbonfiberglass.com/Foam-Core/expanding-foam-ab-2-part-pour/2-LB-Density-Urethane-Foam-80lb-kit-40-cubic-ft-coverage.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 10:58am
Originally posted by dgray007 dgray007 wrote:

Food for thought after doing a stringer and floor replacement on my 89 Nautique 2001.

There are 2 types of fiberglass shops. One's that have burnt down and one's that will...

Do your research on the resin that you buy. Some boats were made out of SMC fiberglass and standard resins do not stick to them. Cheaper is not better. The cheaper variations, available at most box stores and marina's, have a filler comparable to limestone mixed into the resin. This makes wetting your fiberglass mat very difficult compared to the higher quality resin. I used about 6 gallons of resin and an entire roll of mat. 3.5ft wide by 50 ft long? or longer...

You will burn through a lot of material and a lot of rubber gloves. I went through 2000 pairs of rubber gloves by the time I was completed...

Paper Dixie cups are great for mixing and they are cheap. Don't use plastic... They tend to melt.

Fiberglass creates heat as the chemical reaction occurs. The combination of warm ambient air temperatures, atomized solvents in the air and high reaction temperatures can make a recipe for disaster. Be careful, Make sure you have enough ventilation and if you can afford them sparkless tools, and heaters. Ye old torpedo furnace isnt recommended.

Your boat will have open cell foam used in its construction. Replace it with closed cell expanding foam. 2lb foam is fine. Your boat will be much stronger and will n ever sink....

Some basic protective equipment makes you look like a huge dork but will make your job a little more tolerable. Throwaway jumpsuit, tape the legs and arms closed if you have to, comfortable respirator and goggles to keep the fumes out of your eyes. It gets pretty thick in the bottom of the hull after glassing the floor together.

Cardboard templates are a lifesaver before cutting into that $60 sheet of marine grade plywood.

Use bondo or similar filler to round inside corners or anything else to help the fiberglass lay down. Fiberglass mat does not like sharp angles. This will ultimately make the repair stronger and more reliable. After applying filler to the inside corners take the glossy surface back off before applying fiberglass. The resin won't stick to a glossy surface. Same goes for the old fiberglass. If the surface is glossy or dirty the new stuff will not stick and you are wasting your time. Do your prep work!

Seriously consider hanging your boat during this process. If your boat is on the trailer the hull will deform as you remove structural components. Hanging the boat with the hooks designe by Correct Craft will allow the hull to relax.

Lastly. Get creative and make your boating life easier. Move that battery compartment out from underneath the bow. Put a cup holder in the floor by the drivers seat. Yes they fit. trust me on this one.

Congrats. you are now qualified to replace stringers...

p.s. 3m 80 grit 8 inch grinding disks fit on your high speed buffer with a cheap adapter.



A lot of interesting ideas/thoughts, especially about hanging the hull and using bondo.

Anyone seen this system? They don't address rotten wood, but if they come up with a way to inject epoxy into rotten wood after the boat is dried out, stringer replacement may not be necessary.
http://www.dryboat.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

Originally posted by dgray007 dgray007 wrote:



Seriously consider hanging your boat during this process. If your boat is on the trailer the hull will deform as you remove structural components. Hanging the boat with the hooks designe by Correct Craft will allow the hull to relax.


A lot of interesting ideas/thoughts, especially about hanging the hull and using Bondo.


Bruce,
The technique is fantastic for removing hogs along the keel.
Daniel,
Do you understand Bondo is hygroscopic?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgray007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 5:15pm
So is fiberglass to an extent... Bondo use should be kept to a minimum and only used as a filler to round inside or sharp corners so the fiberglass lays down and wets out properly. If you get air mixed into the mat or mesh you pretty well just wasted your time. The Bondo, in its most basic form, is cotton fibers mixed with fiberglass resin. Bonding properties between your fiberglass resin and the bondo is really a really good mechanical bond. If you are using the epoxy type setup to repair your boat you should do some more research as to compatibility between your filler and your epoxy resins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by dgray007 dgray007 wrote:

So is fiberglass to an extent... If you are using the epoxy type setup to repair your boat you should do some more research as to compatibility between your filler and your epoxy resins.


There aren't fillers compatible with epoxy?

Maybe you should go way back when the boys started the epoxy building and repair of boats Get their book too since it has all the information on fillers plus extensive testing of the fillers.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgray007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 6:06pm
If you are using the epoxy type setup to repair your boat you should do some more research as to compatibility between your filler and your epoxy resins.

There may be, but I cannot speak to them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgray007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 7:13pm
What may have been lost in this thread

Most restorers use epoxy nowadays. Epoxy is a great choice. I chose to use resin. I had a cheap source of high-quality fiberglass resin available to me. It was not off the shelf home depot garbage. There is a difference in the "filler' ratio's used to make the resin. Price bears out the quality of the resin. It is more expensive because there is less filler...I could not justify the extra cost of epoxy because of my situation. If you use high-quality industrial grade resin and the mat or mesh in the proper areas your repair will last just as long as epoxy will if not longer. If you want a 100-year repair buy a new boat. If you want a 30-year repair use you one of the repair methods above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jterr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 9:49pm
Well I'm on my 2nd shop the 1st really messed everything up, now the 2nd guy has to find out how bad and go from there.
Gonna get a update Friday afternoon I hope.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by dgray007 dgray007 wrote:

. I chose to use resin. I had a cheap source of high-quality fiberglass resin available to me. It was not off the shelf home depot garbage. There is a difference in the "filler' ratio's used to make the resin. .

What is this "filler" you refer to in the cheap Home Depot polyester resin?

BTW, I wasn't aware the HD had polyester resin but I looked on their site and sure enough here's the 3M Bondo brand. It's even stocked in my store so when I go to work tomorrow, I'll have to walk over a couple isles and take a look. Also, I have always considered 3M to make high quality products. Am I wrong?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgray007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2019 at 10:38am
3m does make a good product and I have used that exact gallon on other projects I can't get terribly technical here because I'm by no means an expert but that product is designed for small repairs. Think 1 sq foot and smaller. When you are trying to wet out a large area there are advantages to having a resin that is designed for that situation. The off the shelf 3m home depot resin is cut with calcite, or basically limestone. wet out time, work time, overall strength is fine for general small repairs. Structural repairs in large areas of a boat really call for a high-quality resin that has not been cut or filled with calcite. The biggest advantage is the speed in which the mat or mesh "wets" with the high-quality resin. With the home depot stuff, you would have to work in a 1x1 area, The industrial quality stuff will wet a 4x8 sheet of plywood with mesh with plenty of work time before the resin kicks. This gives you a chemical bond across the entire sheet creating a single panel that is chemically bonded vs multiple chemically bonded areas that are mechanically bonded together to form the same 4x8 panel. I should probably define a mechanical bond as well. A mechanical bond occurs between old cured fiberglass and the new glass and resin that you put down over the top. The chemical bond is the hardening process that happens when you mix resin and hardener. Can you use the home depot resin? sure. Will it fall apart? Probably not. Will it make your life more difficult? yep...

Hope that helps a little. Again, I'm not an expert. below is a site that explains a little better than I can. I have purchased from them and have not had any issues.

https://www.carbonfiberglass.com/Resin-Systems/Polyester-Resins/6736-Premium-Polyester-Layup-Resin-Quart.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScottDry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2019 at 7:48pm

Anyone seen this system? They don't address rotten wood, but if they come up with a way to inject epoxy into rotten wood after the boat is dried out, stringer replacement may not be necessary.
http://www.dryboat.com/[/QUOTE]

We actually do address rot. There are a number of products, including special epoxies, that work in these situations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 00065cccuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2020 at 7:00pm
Just got done with new stringers in my 65 coda I used the west system epoxy and slow hardener worked excellent! Used Douglas fur straight grain @ 200 bucks each! Well worth it. Used silica filler to seat the new stringers to the floor then 4" fiberglass then 6" fiberglass and up and over the stringers. Its unbelievable how much strength in the bottom of the hull with new stringers. Lots of work to get to this point all I can say is take your time this job cannot be done in one day. Good luck I'll try and post some pics soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lakedog55 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-15-2020 at 11:13am
Hi have not been on site in a while.
For sanding and messy crap a cheapo 10x20 car port is a must. I tied mine to trailer
Tools to add cheapo electric hand planer. Nice for shaping and correcting or adjusting
Warning old floor and hull are very close together where the front chines start. Right at the curve by front next to the gunnel. I used a circular saw and left the lip on made it easy to match up floor height. Set it just deep enough to go through fiberglass.

If not using foam I would install 2 drains just in case. I messed up on this put them in a real crappy spot to get to.
Material
The fasco 110 is a great product for setting stringers. No problems on mine and it has been in for 6 years now. Biax mat is nice. I used it wraps better than you would think
I had to special order fir and one of the mains came in with a slight bend. Trust me send it back.. I was impatient Dont need something you got to try and make straight while gluing them down pain in the butt.
If you think you have any problems with wiring, cables, do it now. Also upgrade the ground wire.
Look at all the pics on site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lakedog55 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-15-2020 at 11:20am
One last thing. I would remove windshield if had to do another one.

Not that it is in the way. But just in case. I did not cover mine and had finger prints all over it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elpasojon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-14-2020 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by Kjerchinger Kjerchinger wrote:

Looks Solid, nice job Rob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Laheyth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2021 at 8:20pm
Getting ready to replace the floor and stringers in my 84SN, with 2480 hr on it.... its a great boat.
Question I see reference to but need details:
I plan to take the hull off the trailer and build bunkers  to hold it.
How do you "level the hull" and know it is in the right shape?
One thought I had was to mark the hull while in the water, but I can see flaws with that depending on fuel in tank etc.
I see reference to hanging it from the lifting eyes
Clarity would be a big help here, I dont want a hook or rocker when done.
Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lakedog55 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2021 at 10:28pm
I had same question. Back ground in construction so level up. Not so true with boat. I used a story stick. Marked the gunnel evenly down in like 6” increments. Then used a aluminum straight edge and measured down. This gave me a reference or blueprint of where I needed to be when finished. Did this several times at different stages of demo. On the boat set up I would leave it on trailer for support and the guys here have excellent advise on where to add support to chines. I did try to get the boat level from side to side. One word of caution when cutting out old floor where front chines start the floor and hull are very close together. In other words set the saw just deep enough to get through the fiber glass on floor. I used old makita skill saw and cut right around the boat. The lip makes a nice place to tie in. Also. Couple of people have done the rear area with a drain I put drain in but not easily accessible. Also be sure to route your chases properly I have not had to replace steering cable but am dreading the day I do. Did mine about 6 or 7 years ago and seems just as solid as day one. us US Composites and this web site. Only way to go
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