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tbeard View Drop Down
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    Posted: September-08-2012 at 8:25pm
My 88 BFN has stalled 4 times this summer for no reason! While pulling a skier up the boat will loose all electrical power and engine will die completely...... with no warning. (It always does this while accelerating with a skier.....under a load) This may be a coincidence.

To restart the boat I push the in dash circuit breaker off and again for on. Then the boat will start like normal, and it will not act up again for a few weeks. I am curious if anyone has had a similar problem and knows what is causing the problem or are there some things that I should check. For trouble shooting I thought I would start with replace the circuit breaker in the dash and the one behind the engine.
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pepatrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2012 at 8:29pm
Yes..I had this exact same problem. I replaced the ground wired as my gauges were bouncing all over the place. Replaced the ignition breaker (the culprit) and rewired under the dash. I have since pulled my old ignition breaker apart and cleaned it out. I used some dielectric grease on it and it appears to be ok now. It is back in the boat and the new one is in the spare parts drawer.

Philip
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2012 at 8:45pm
Thanks Philip...So you pulled the in dash circit breaker for the ignition and cleaned it? I guess the ignition system is sending a electrical surge that trips the breaker. So with the breaker being 24 years old I guess it becomes easier to trip?
I have the same issue with my gages bouncing.....this winter I plan to re wire the dash.
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2012 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by tbeard tbeard wrote:

Thanks Philip...So you pulled the in dash circit breaker for the ignition and cleaned it? I guess the ignition system is sending a electrical surge that trips the breaker. So with the breaker being 24 years old I guess it becomes easier to trip?
I have the same issue with my gages bouncing.....this winter I plan to re wire the dash.

The alternator will not create a "surge". Get the VOM out and start checking the volts and yes on getting some bigger wiring both + and - up to the dash.

Who told you about the "surge" issue? I caution you to listen to the person who told you about a voltage spike!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2012 at 1:44am
Thanks.....Would you run bigger wire from the Battery and Engine to the dash? Nautique parts sell the circut breakers so I will order one Monday. After ski season I plan to re do the dash.

Hopefully the replacement of the breaker will fix the problem of boat dying and the rewire will be just an overall improvement of the system.
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2012 at 9:03am
Check me Pete(and expand if you like):

As resistance increases, the current is reduced. In this case, resistance = corrosion.

I=V/R
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2012 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

Check me Pete(and expand if you like):

As resistance increases, the current is reduced. In this case, resistance = corrosion.

I=V/R

Greg,
You're close but I'll change the wording. As resistance increases from ether too small wiring to handle the current or corrosion, the voltage drops. Then with the voltage drop, the current (amps/watts) increases compounding the problem.

In Tom's case, the voltage readings will tell the story. He should get a reading at the battery and then under the dash. This will indicate the drop. Circuit breakers do go bad especially the cheap ones that the factory installed. Even cycling them a few times will weaken the bimetallic spring/contact inside. He needs to check the load on that ignition breaker. A decent VOM will have a 20 amp setting. It needs to be put in series in the circuit to get the reading. Both the coil and the electric choke are powered up off that breaker.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2012 at 1:25pm
I am terrible at electrical troubleshooting and analysis, so in simple terms is this what I need to do.
1. With boat running get the voltage readings off the battery.
2. Get same readings off the wire connector on the ignition circuit breaker, coil and electrical choke....while boat is running.
3.If there is a significant drop in volts replace the wires. (I will post the readings next week when I bring the boat home)
4. Replace the ignition circuit breaker for good practice.
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2012 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by tbeard tbeard wrote:

I am terrible at electrical troubleshooting and analysis, so in simple terms is this what I need to do.
1. With boat running get the voltage readings off the battery.
2. Get same readings off the wire connector on the ignition circuit breaker, coil and electrical choke....while boat is running.
3.If there is a significant drop in volts replace the wires. (I will post the readings next week when I bring the boat home)
4. Replace the ignition circuit breaker for good practice.

Tom,
Yes, get us the voltage readings. Even better would be the amp reading that's going through the ignition breaker.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2012 at 1:51pm
OK....Give me a week or two to get the boat home and get started on it. Thanks Pete, Greg and Philip
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 9:12am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

Check me Pete(and expand if you like):

As resistance increases, the current is reduced. In this case, resistance = corrosion.

I=V/R

Greg,
You're close but I'll change the wording. As resistance increases from ether too small wiring to handle the current or corrosion, the voltage drops. Then with the voltage drop, the current (amps/watts) increases compounding the problem.


Thanks Pete. I get the equation and the math...it's the translation into real world applications that I'm sorting out. It's all the fault of some guy named Grob.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pepatrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 1:22pm
In my case..it was not tripping the breaker...I think corrosion was not allowing for a good connection. When I turned on the blower, bilge pump or nav lights my real voltage (volt meter) would drop to below 10 volts. The engine would run, but the gauges would jump all over the place. When I would run full throttle it would run great for a minute or so and then die. I would have to use pliers to start it through the solenoid and it would just turn over. After it cooled off for a while it would start back up. I also learned later on if I banged on the ignition breaker it would start up with the key. Once I rewired and cleaned up the breaker, I have not had a problem with the boat since. I am getting about 13.7 volts +- (volt meter) when running now. I am getting very little drop if any when nav lights, bilge or blower is on. Some times the blower will drop it a little, but not enough to worry about.

If you have any electrical back ground, these boats are not that difficult to rewire. It just takes time on your back under the dash. I pulled the front seat out and loaded up with blade connectors, ring connectors and lots of 14 gauge black, red and purple wire. The PO of the boat already had + and - terminal blocks screwed to the back of the dash so that made wiring considerably easier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pepatrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 1:25pm
I think the 89 BFNs might be a little easier to wire as the dash wiring may be more easily accessible. The 86 SN was just easier to lie on the back and wire away...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 2:50pm
I looked under the dash a while back and did see a black terminal strip with blacvk wires attached to it. Mabey CC or a previous owner installed that. The wires looked small.
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by tbeard tbeard wrote:

The wires looked small.

What's the load? Without knowing the amp load, just saying the "wires looked small" is meaningless.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

Check me Pete(and expand if you like):

As resistance increases, the current is reduced. In this case, resistance = corrosion.

I=V/R

Greg,
You're close but I'll change the wording. As resistance increases from ether too small wiring to handle the current or corrosion, the voltage drops. Then with the voltage drop, the current (amps/watts) increases compounding the problem.


Thanks Pete. I get the equation and the math...it's the translation into real world applications that I'm sorting out. It's all the fault of some guy named Grob.


I maintain that Pete is still all wet on this.

There is more waste heat but not more current created from the increased resistance of any of these loads.

The reality is not different than the equations.

Breakers get weak from internal corrosion of simple mechanical cycling of the materials.. additionally the contacts within the breakers can corrode and have thier own increasing contact resistance which will heat up the breaker to a point where it will pop at a lower than rated current... but too small a wire aint gonna incease the amps going to the circuit fed by that wire..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:



I maintain that Pete is still all wet on this.

There is more waste heat but not more current created from the increased resistance of any of these loads.

Joe,
Get back into the basic Ohms law!!    As voltage decreases. the amps/watts go up!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2012 at 11:25pm
Ohms law actually states the exact opposite, current (amps) decreases as voltage decreases.   You have been playin with ac motors for too long...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pepatrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 12:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 3:56am
As one who knows only enough to be dangerous, there is a case where Pete is right - If the wire is feeding a motor, then increased R may result in lower RPM & lower back EMF, thus creating more amp draw. I realize this isn't the case here as it is not the starting circuit that is in question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 12:08pm
Of course but that is a very limited and transient situation, that as you state - in a boat can only be found in the starting circuit. Not even with the other motors that can be found in a boat the such as the bilge or blower… they have a defined torque speed curve and with any voltage significant enough to cause their operation they will move slower and use less current at the lower voltage.   This is different that with AC motors because of the set frequency of the ac current and the design of the motor tends to as a rule draw more current when you drop voltage below the design operating voltage of the motor at that frequency. The situation remains… in this case Pete is all wet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 12:19pm
Joe,
You need to clarify DC brushed or brushless. They do react to a voltage drop differently! I'm not as stupid as you think I am!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 1:09pm
Not stupid, just stubborn..

We are talking about the run circuit of a boat here (which may contain a bldc stepper motor if equipped with non drive by wire perfect pass but not one that would draw more current at less voltage)   


.. if you want to get into the applications of brushed vs brushless and then onto ecm motors vs. permanent magnet synchronous, vs internal permanent magnet synchronous with flux weakening then I am your huckleberry.. but if you want to get into the most fun stuff we would need to take it offline and you would need to sign an NDA…

My points remain valid.. there is only one ciruit on a correctcraft where increased resistance may at some points cause increased current draw (and even then it is decrease increased max current but is increased power consumption)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 6:03pm
While you guys are going at it I ordered my new circuit breaker for the ignition today from nautique Parts... Hope that fixes the problem until I can evaluate the wiring. :)
Thanks.......Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by tbeard tbeard wrote:

While you guys are going at it I ordered my new circuit breaker for the ignition today from nautique Parts... Hope that fixes the problem until I can evaluate the wiring. :)

Tom,
Joe and I aren't "going at it" We are just friends having a very interesting debate!!

So, you got voltage readings (for drop) as well as the amp load that was going through the breaker. I'm glad to hear that since I would hate to label a fellow engineer as simply as another "parts changer!! What was the drop and amps through the breaker? It sure would help others with the possible same problem who have access to a VOM.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2012 at 9:30pm
No readings yet...the boat is still in storage at the river. I need to bring it home next week where I have my tools and a place where I can work on it. Ordered the breaker knowing it would take a few days to arrive. Ryan (SN206) will give me a hand....hopefully
Thanks.......Tom
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[QUOTE/] Ryan (SN206) will give me a hand....[/QUOTE]

Hope and Change!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-13-2012 at 5:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tbeard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-20-2013 at 5:22pm
We got the boat running last week and everything is working...engine, horn, bilge, blower, lights. When not in the boat I always turn off the ignition breaker off so the clock is not running.

When I started working on the boat last night I noticed the clock running with the breaker off. So now the main breaker does not close to keep power from running through the dash. (Power is there weather the breaker is open or closed) Is that common with a faulty breaker or could I have power feed from the Ballast resister or solenoid? I plan to go back to the shop tomorrow and take my Volt meter to start troubleshooting.
Thanks.......Tom
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