Running motor backwards |
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Posted: October-03-2012 at 1:16am |
So I have the 302 running backwards now in the 76 Ski Tique. To recap, I bought this boat as a basket case not knowing that the motor in it was not original and was set up to run CCW. I replaced the camshaft and now have it running CW. I have only run it for about 30 seconds cuz I havent gotten around to changing the oil since I dont know how old the current oil is etc. BUT, that made me think: is the oil pump spinning the wrong way now? Do I need a backwards rotation oil pump now too? BTW these backwards rotation parts are ***************g expensive!
This is a clip of it idling |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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No your good,the oil pump and distributor always turn in the correct direction no matter which way the engine turns. The thing you should be worring about is camshaft break-in. It is important you use the correct oil with ZDDP and run it as the cam manufacture recommends
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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it's an additive that due to the EPA has been removed from just about all oils. You can buy it seperatly to add to your oil,it's not cheap or you can run Valvoline VR-1 it still has it. Newer engines have gone over to roller cams that do not need it. Did you get break-in instructions from Melling?
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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This is a critical time for your camshafts life,you could ruin it in minutes. Melling link
Do not run a synthetic either |
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Hmmm, noted. Thanks. No I dont think that break in instructions were in the box. I will double check when I get out to it tomorrow though. Should I follow common break in procedure off the interwebs?
What happens if a guy doesnt use that product? Is it pretty common among engine builders etc. so it might not be difficult to find? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Auto zone or napa usually have it around here don't know about where you live. The area at the lifter and the cam is under tremendous pressure,zddp was used in oils to protect it. What will happen is you can wear off a cam lobe and you get to start all over again with a new cam and lifters. You did use new lifters with your new cam right?
Here is mellings instructions-- Important Camshaft Break-In Information for Flat Tappet Cams The following information should be considered for any engine that uses a flat tappet design and should be referenced before initial start-up. The current engine oils used by engine manufacturers in new car production are not applicable for initial flat tappet break-in. Those oils are less desirable than older formulations which have better wear additives than the current SM category oils. With the advent of roller lifters, and cams, as well as roller rockers, the need for those expensive elements has diminished. There have been numerous reports of premature flat tappet camshaft failure. This has been an issue of late and not just with one brand or type of camshaft. In almost every case, the hardness or the taper of the cam lobe is suspected, yet most of the time that is not the problem. This growing trend is due to factors that are unrelated to camshaft manufacture or quality. Changes in today’s oil products and “advanced” internal engine design have contributed to a harsher environment for the camshaft and a potential for failure during break-in. However, there are several things you can do to turn the tide on this discouraging trend. Below is a list of oils with higher levels of wear preventive additives that may be more desirable during flat tappet break-in. All of the oils listed below also have flashpoints above 400° F. Delo 400 Delvac Rotella T Magnesium 23 Moly 35 Magnesium 20 Calcium 3343 Boron 61 Calcium 3322 Zinc 1376 Calcium 2195 Phosphorus 1326 Viscosity @ 100° C 15.95 Magnesium 419 Zinc 1499 TBN * 10.63 Phosphorus 1120 Viscosity @ 100° C 15.12 Zinc 1231 TBN * 10.36 Viscosity @ 100° C 15.5 No TBN * * TBN stands for Total Base Number, which is the measurement of a lubricant’s reserve alkalinity. The higher a motor oil’s TBN, the more effective it is in handling contaminants and reducing the corrosive effects of acids for an extended period of time. Melling and Melling Select Performance offer Mell-Lube, camshaft lube, (Melling part # M-10012). Use liberal amounts when installing new camshaft and lifters. NOTE: Some of this information has been provided by AREA. Ref., AERA Technical Bulletin, TB233 Recommended Camshaft Break-In Procedures In order to give your camshaft and lifters the best possible chance to make it through the first crucial moments of operation upon initial startup and provide a long, trouble-free service life, the following is recommended: PRELUBE BY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING METHODS BEST Pressure Tank System: The pressure tank system is by far the best method of making all air is purged from the oil galleys. Prelube until oil is seen at the rocker arms. Use an oil recommended by the manufacturer, do NOT use a non-detergent oil. NEXT BEST Spinning The Oil Pump: Using a priming tool, turn the pump with a drill until oil is seen at the rocker arms. Priming tools are available from Melling. LEAST DESIRABLE Free Spinning The Engine: Remove the spark plugs and turn the engine with the starter until oil pressure is noted on the gauge. BEFORE STARTING: Set the timing and be sure fuel is in the carburetor or injection before cranking. This will assure the engine starts with the least amount of cranking. START THE ENGINE: After it starts, check for oil pressure and bring the RPM to 1500-2000. If the pressure is good, run the engine at this RPM range for 20 minutes. After this run in period,final adjustments can be made and the engine put in service. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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You must have changed the distributor gear as well, right?
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Hmmm. Im cheap so I left the old lifters in. I suppose I will find out if that was stupid. Most lifters felt spongy while two or three felt stiff while installing. I did my daintiest in adjusting valve lash.
I didnt prime the oil system. Just cranked it. I did prelube the cam with white lithium grease while installing it. Total run time on the cam now is no more than 30 seconds. Probably another 20 seconds of cranking before that. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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not good on any of the above
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Oh, sorry, I used the distributor, intake, carburetor, exhaust manifold from old setup
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Haha! how bad did I do?
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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you have a good chance of having to do it all again. Should have asked first or just googled camshaft installation
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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I have very little run time on the new camshaft. It cant be wrecked yet. What should I do to do it correcter?
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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Or correctorish... ?
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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The best would be new lifters and a moly type of lube recommended by a cam manufacturer. There is a chance you have already damaged it or if your really lucky and maybe have the stock and fatigued valve springs still on you got away with it. Joe and or Tim might see this in the morning and advise too.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I have seen a couple cams with the lobs almost gone when they were run on oils without ZDDP. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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If you changed rotation, you would have had to at least changed the distributor gear, right? I guess the cam gears wouldn't have meshed if it were wrong... |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Sad day. You can reuse roller lifters or re install lifters on a camshaft that has been broken in on those particular lifters. They all get a wear pattern because flat tappet camshafts spin the lifters around while they run. This prevents excessive wear on the lifter in one position. Each Lifter Must be placed in the same hole they came out of. ZDDP prevents metal to metal contact especially on flat tappet high lift(high spring pressure) applications.
It only take a few rotations to wipe a lobe. The mopar purple shaft cams were notorious for that on start up. Mine made it through! Internal engine work is worth the time to study what you need to do because it is expensive and takes a while to re do. On a side note besides, camshaft break in my car has never had ZDDP in the oil and it has 15k miles and probably 150 passes down the 1320. Needless to say she is getting a bit tired. In retrospec, I will be running Valvoline Racing when it gets freshened up again. |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
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Agreed the gear that you are using could not have been used with the last cam or it wouldnt mesh. Either that or the last cam was also a reverse rotation cam that you were trying to turn std rotation and it never ran?
You need new lifters to go with the new cam, they are cheap, get a set from melling lube the heck out of them with cam lube, reinstall and follow the break in proceedure above. The reality is that you can destroy a cam in 30 secs, but you might not have. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Did you swap a correct rotation rear main and front crank seal?
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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What Joe said. Unless this is a gear drive Chevy, in which case the dizzy gear is the same for both rotations. If its a Ford, definitely need to swap gears. |
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thateb
Groupie Joined: August-28-2012 Location: Pierre, SD Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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The engine starts up and runs so yes I did make sure to install the correct distributor seeing as the gears are cut specific to cam rotation.
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Ben - You might want to call Melling & run your situation by them. Maybe they would want to have you return it for inspection - possibly it could be polished if it is scored from the old lifters.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Yes, it runs now but in 30 minuets will it after the lifters and cam are ground down? Sorry, but I agree with all the other comments regarding the caution on the lifter to cam interface. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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& how many parts will the metal grit take with it?
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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It always pays to ask first and do the investigation!! |
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Jfk12
Newbie Joined: October-01-2012 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 5 |
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Just a quick question? Isn't the crank shaft cut different at the remain seal area on a counter rotation engine??
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