Obamas Gun Controle Proposal?

john b wrote: Are you guys serious? Really? No really? Last time I checked I couldn't find any cell phones, cameras, or other gadgets that were specifically engineered to kill people as effectively as possible. That is the designed purpose of the M-16/AR15. They were not designed for hunting, plinking, or looking like a piece of artwork. Comparing an AR15 to a camera or cell phone confirms in the minds of those opposed to them that those who want them are the lunatic fringe. Why not support your positions with reasonable rhetoric so you appear to be reasonable people. I think it would go a long ways in confirming that some get enjoyment from them, use them responsibly, and aren't itching to turn someone's head into red mist if they do something you don't approve of. Some of you are fanning the flames of gun control with these crazy statements.

   Precisely what I was getting at. You completely missed the point about the camera. It's NOT the foolish camera! According to you the AR15 is engineered to kill people as effectively as possible, yet cell phones actually kill way more people than AR15s. So by your argument if it's really about saving lives cell phones should be banned. Period. I should've just stayed out of this like I said I would have lol....people get so wrapped up in blind emotion that they fail to think with any logic, and wind up calling others crazy. And by the way, the AR 15 is a civilian sporting rifle. It was not designed to kill as many people as effectively as possible. It was patterned after the M4/M16 because that rifle has proved itself to be very versatile in many applications, but is not available new for purchase by civilians. Does anyone find it odd that these rifles were widely accepted by most for what they were before the recent shootings? The AR15 is the #1 selling rifle in the US, for its versatility, not its ability to kill humans. It is an excellent platform for coyote hunting and pig hunting especially chambered with the 300 blackout round. I'm not trying to insult you John, just asking you to look real hard at what you're actually saying. It makes zero sense.

Mike

john i am not trying to slice the a/r variant any wich way what i am trying to solve is wether or not he actually USED A RIFLE IN THE SCHOOL. i dont care either way no matter how you look at it its a grievous tragedy . i am trying to make the point that in all news i can get my hands on ( if you or anyone can show me differently please help me)
all official reports i read seem to dance around whether or not he did . That is all i am trying to resolve

john i am not trying to slice the a/r variant any wich way what i am trying to solve is wether or not he actually USED A RIFLE IN THE SCHOOL. i dont care either way no matter how you look at it its a grievous tragedy . i am trying to make the point that in all news i can get my hands on ( if you or anyone can show me differently please help me)
all official reports i read seem to dance around whether or not he did . That is all i am trying to resolve it always mentions a rifle without saying in direct terms that it went in the school thats all

I heard that Hillary Clinton was seen on the grassy knoll outside the school with someone associated with the New World Order and a Carcano model 91/38 rifle was found in the in the book deposit outside the Sandy Hook library.

peter1234 wrote: john i am not trying to slice the a/r variant any wich way what i am trying to solve is wether or not he actually USED A RIFLE IN THE SCHOOL. i dont care either way no matter how you look at it its a grievous tragedy . i am trying to make the point that in all news i can get my hands on ( if you or anyone can show me differently please help me) all official reports i read seem to dance around whether or not he did . That is all i am trying to resolve

Did you try the medical examiners report?

NEWTOWN, Conn.--Dr. H. Wayne Carver, the medical examiner investigating Friday's massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School, said autopsies completed on 20 children and six adults on Saturday showed they were killed with multiple bullets fired by a rifle at close range.

The veteran medical examiner told reporters that the victims had all been identified and their bodies released. In what appeared to be an uncomfortable moment for Carver, he said all of the victims he had examined had all been shot by a Bushmaster .223 caliber assault rifle, one of at least two weapons Adam Lanza, the 20-year-old suspected shooter, used to commit one of the deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history.

Another;



NEWTOWN, Conn.--Dr. H. Wayne Carver, the medical examiner investigating Friday's massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School, said autopsies completed on 20 children and six adults on Saturday showed they were killed with multiple bullets fired by a rifle at close range.

"I've been at this for a third of a century and my sensibilities may not be those of the average man, but this probably is the worst I have seen or the worst that I know of any of my colleagues have seen," Carver told reporters gathered at Treadwell Park, less than a mile from the school where the shooting occurred.

Lt. Paul Vance distributed a photocopied list with the names and dates of birth of the victims, including 12 girls and 8 boys, most of them born in 2006.

The youngest was Noah Pozner, who celebrated his 6th birthday in November. Josephine Gay, another victim, turned 7 on Dec. 11, three days before the massacre. The oldest victim identified Saturday was Mary Sherlach, age 56.

All of the adult victims were women, aged 27 to 56.

Autopsies on the suspected shooter, who police say shot himself, and his mother--who was found dead in their Newtown home--would be conducted Sunday, Carver said.

Police have still not released his name. "You have to understand this is an ongoing investigation, with an active crime scene," Vance said.

The veteran medical examiner told reporters that the victims had all been identified and their bodies released. In what appeared to be an uncomfortable moment for Carver, he said all of the victims he had examined had all been shot by a Bushmaster .223 caliber assault rifle, one of at least two weapons Adam Lanza, the 20-year-old suspected shooter, used to commit one of the deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history.

"This is only the second press conference I have ever done," in more than 30 years, Carver noted dryly.

Lanza allegedly gunned down his mother, Nancy Lanza, at their home Friday before driving to Sandy Hook and forcing his way inside to commence the deadly shooting spree.

Before the names were released, Newtown First Selectman Patricia Llodra urged the crush of media assembled at the park to respect the victims' families.

"Please treat our community with kindness," Llodra said. "We need your help on this healing journey."

Earlier, Sen. Richard Blumenthal met with local officials and families in Newtown, but refused to engage in the debate over gun control in the wake of the shooting.

"We're going to have that conversation at another time," Blumenthal told Yahoo! News. "Right now my focus is on this community, the families and the continuing shock and grief they are experiencing."

He added: "I can't imagine any job tougher than to tell parents their 7-year-old is gone. It's the worst nightmare for any parent."

The Connecticut State Police released the names of the 26 victims at the news conference. The full list is included below:

Bacon, Charlotte 02/22/06, F

Barden, Daniel 09/25/05, M

Davino, Rachel 07/17/83, F

Engel, Olivia 07/18/06, F

Gay, Josephine 12/11/05, F

Marquez-Greene, Ana M 04/04/06, F

Hockley, Dylan, 03/08/06, M

Hocksprung, Dawn 06/28/65, F

Hsu, Madeleine, F 07/10/06

Hubbard, Catherine V 06/08/06, F

Kowalski, Chase 10/31/05, M

Lewis, Jesse 06/30/06, M

Mattioli, James 03/22/06, M

McDonnell, Grace 11/04/05, F

Murphy, Anne Marie 07/25/60, F

Parker, Emilie 05/12/06, F

Pinto, Jack 05/06/06, M

Pozner, Noah 11/20/06, M

Previdi, Caroline 09/07/06, F

Rekos, Jessica 05/10/06

Richman, Avielle 10/17/06, F

Russeau, Lauren 06/0/82 (number listed on form), F

Sherlach, Mary 02/11/56, F

Soto, Victoria 11/04/85, F

Wheeler, Benjamin 09/12/06, M

Wyatt, Allison N 07/03/06, F

The big G is a useful tool.

I heard nothing of mental health problems.Did you?As a gun advocate,I would hope the House will pass a bill's on mental health,and stiffer background checks. I am for that for sure.

As we see,facts do not lie.Look at the crime rates in Chicago.Stiff,stiff gun control laws in the US and the WORST crime rate in America. The only problem I do see with mental health is you will have to invade a person's privacy or health records.

Do you get to see Boehnor speach last night?Like you said,Obama's agenda is to literally push the republicans of the map.None existent.

what do your crime rate stats have to do with guns?

jbach wrote: what do your crime rate stats have to do with guns?

I just don't like to see my "Sweet Home" slandered. I think you will find that crime rates are tied to poverty not gun ownership.

why do you guys always use the UK? because it's the only example that fits the agenda?

Ok, how about these examples.

Russian Federation: 11.2 per 100,000
Nigeria:12.2
Nicaragua: 13.2
Korea: 15.2
Namibia: 17.2
Mexico: 18.1
Kenya: 20.1
Greenland: 10.5
Nicaragua: 13.2
Ecuador: 18.2
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 22
Dominican Republic: 24.9
Saint Lucia: 25.2
Puerto Rico: 26.2
Colombia: 33.4
Trinidad and Tobago: 35.2
Saint Kitts and Nevis: 38.2
US Virgin Islands: 39.2
Guatemala: 41.4
Venezuela: 49
Jamaica: 52.1
El Salvador: 66
Honduras: 82.1

etc, etc, etc,etc

and as a side note it was also to add the amount of ammo to be transported by supply and the soldier being a considerable amount lighter than the .308 /7.62
Kristof what the N.R.A needs are a coalition of spokespersons from countries such as yours to speak in this country to people on the fence or people who have blinders on ie; hunters /plinkers/or the millions who just have a 22 of gramps in the closet and show them what this can lead to.

Very well said John.

Discussing the subject here on the forum, while yet intresting, will not change anything on the matter.
Those who want to keep the freedom of possessing a gun (for sport shooting or defend their homes or whatever other reason) still have the change to let themselves be heard. So do it. Speak to your representatives and build strong arguments around your case... You still have the chance to do it...

We do not have that chance anymore over here...

john b wrote: With a rate in the USA of 3.9 firearm deaths per 100,000 population our firearm murder rate is 90 TIMES greater than that in Great Britain, which has a rate of 0.04 per 100,000.

Yeah, your numbers sound more in line. For some reason when I looked it up per capita it was showing the UK with a 1.48 per rate, which is alot closer than .04 per. I did see where .04 per was listed someplace else so maybe the place I checked was including other murders or something.

jbach wrote: why do you guys always use the UK? because it's the only example that fits the agenda?

I was referencing the Uk because that moron on CNN keeps touting how safe it is. He neglects too mention that per capita it has the most violent crime rate in Europe though. That's the point I was trying to get at.

I guess Mexico would have been a better example . They are a great example of how well gun control works and our government is partially, directly responsible for some of the violence down there.

john b wrote: I would encourage all of you who have an interest in the issue to call your representatives, be they Republican or Democratic, and respectfully make your view known. If those of you who are strong gun rights supporters stand on the sidelines and expect the NRA to do all of the work I don't think it will end well for you.

I have been doing this weekly since Sandy Hook and could not agree with you more. FWIW, I do not think the NRA has done a very good job publically with this issue. They may be fighting inside the legislature, but in the publics eye they really have had poor representation of gun owners on this issue. They need to stop pointing fingers at video games and movies. I believe that the mental health issue plays an important role and I think that guns and video games only become a negative part of the equation if the individual has a mental health issue. I would be surprised if we get much more out of this than stiffer background checks. The problem with background checks though is that criminals won't use them. They don't now and won't later and I think that has been the argument from the beginning.

Example: A few years ago, Massachussetts put up a giant billboard basically blaming Maine for their gun crime. Criminals (note the use of that word) are driving up to Maine and buying guns then heading back into Mass and reselling them for a 2-300% profit in less than 24 hours. Do you think these guys are going to have background checks done? I do not know what percentage of the Maine to Mass sales are guys selling to someone out of state(which is illegal already) and which are thug to thug transactions. Point is, instead of properly trying to address their crime problem, Mass (which has very tough gun laws) just decided it would be easier to point the blame at something else. Sound familiar? Basically Mass has created themselves a very lucrative black market for guns due to their tough gun laws and inability to lock these thugs up and keep them there. Remember, most gun crime perps are REPEAT offenders and CAREER criminals.

I've made some references to other items in this thread and the other one a few weeks ago about regulations on other items such as cars and cameras and people tell me it's an invalid argument. Is it? I'm not saying these things are or aren't more dangerous or more important than other things. What I am trying to point out, is that no one seems to think other law abiding citizens should be subject to excess legislation on these items, but law abiding gun owners should. Can anyone who thinks we should have more gun control give me a valid argument against why we should have more gun laws when we continue to look the other way at all the other ways people die in the hands of criminals or irresponsible citizens. Why is it that guns are always singled out? Because this govt. agenda has absolutely nothing to do with saving lives. That's why.

Mike

more reason for the nra to bring in some out of country spokespersons

could you expect anything else from him or the hillary testimony?