Oil with Zinc or ZDDP

Try this

A short explanation of the need for zinc additive/zDDP: Since engines were invented, the camshaft has rubbed directly on the lifters to operate the valve train, and the rocker arms acted directly on the valve stems. The zinc was necessary to prevent galling and wear at those friction points. Since roller rockers and lifters came into wide use in the last 20 years or so, our meddling government decided that the zinc, being a pollutant, should be eliminated from the oil. Thus any engine that doesn't have rollers could be subject to damage to the cam, lifters, and rockers if zinc is not added to oil that doesn't already have it in.
Art

Good point Gary! And thanks for clearing it up Art Txfoil. VR1 this oil change, then Mobil 1 after that. :)

Same advice applies to all flat tappet cammed ski boat motors... 351w, 302, 318 and many others included.

firstboat1 wrote: I called the dealer last year and they told me to use 30W in my chrysler 318. I know you guy are talkn Fords here but what do you say about the 318?

TRBenj wrote: Same advice applies to all flat tappet cammed ski boat motors... 351w, 302, 318 and many others included.

Craig,
How long has this dealer been around and how well does he know older engines? BTW, when it comes to the older engines, I'm shocked you would trust a dealer over the members here on CCfan!!

Well, you both make good points. I will know what to do in the future!

If I remember correctly (and at my age that's getting shakier all the time), zinc also helps prevent corrosion during off season storage. If my memory is failing I'm sure someone here will be glad to correct me.

TRBenj, what were the specific circumstances of your wiped cam? How many miles or hours of run time on the cam/lifters/springs? What was the breakin procedure? What engine? What springs used? Any higher than factors ratio rockers? What was the valve lift? What oil was used for break in? What oil was used at time of cam failure? What oils were used between breakin and failure? Let's look at the specifics of your failure since we want this backed up by data, so please share your postmortem analysis of the failure.

I've had three cam failures out of dozens of engines I've built, only one was oil related. The first was an a 302. I wiped a Comp 31-242-3 Specs using Comp lifters and Comp 942-16 springs. Heads were early closed chamber 289 heads with mild port job. I forget which rockers I used but whey were stock ratio roller.

This cam failure occurred during initial cam break in. No issues during break in so far as oil pressure, leaks, etc. No shut down and re start of engine during break in. Normal break in procedure was followed, holding approx 2500 RPM and varied with periodic slow sweeps up and down for a duration of not less than 30 minutes. Break in oil was Shell Rotella T 15w40, no additives. This was my standard break in oil and I had never had a prior issue. This was right after the change to lower zinc/phos though and I recall noticing the bottle looked different. I was unaware of the change. The engine had a slight tap after break in and coming down to idle.

Oil changed, valves adjusted. Tick came back quickly and upon inspection of filter and oil metal particles were found. I believe 3 valves had some lash at which point I tore down the engine and discovered the wiped lobes. Full disassembly and cleaning, replaced cam and lifters with same, learned of recent changes to oil, and used VR1 + Comp break in additive on replacement cam with no issues. VR1 used for first oil change after break in. Engine has been run at least 30k miles since using whatever 10w40 is on sale and no issues. This one is in a friend's car so I know of any trouble.

Second failure was on a 460 in one of my own vehicles, failure was actually an internal lifter failure (oil metering plate damaged) from inadequate retainer to valve guide clearance. Floated the valves a couple times and one was just a hair too tight. Caught this before it actually wiped the lobe. I believe this was a Lunati 61602 with the Lunati recommended springs. Ported D3VE heads with pedestal rockers. Cam was a bit much lift for that application and I should have checked all valves and not just one set. This failure was not oil related.


The other was a result of a fairly catastrophic engine failure in a relatively high compression 460, bad gas with insufficient octane caused detonation that went unnoticed until loss of oil pressure. Cam was not the root cause, just one of many damaged parts.

I've heard that Shell Rotella 15w/40(diesel) had been reformulated.
Got 4 gal. from wally world last weekend - 1240 zinc.

Engine oil is about 85% oil and 15% additives. SO-

I disagree about picking whatever is on sale. There are lots to chose
from pick ONE high in zinc (900+) stick with it AND change it regularly.    

A chipped lifter certainly is an interesting failure. I'm visualizing a chip around the perimeter of the base of the lifter, but not necessarily on the base of the convex surface.

That is not a common type of failure and may well have been a manufacturing defect in the lifter. Did it in fact take the lobe with it? If you had no noise it couldn't have been wiping the lobe unless you were adjusting valves all the time. Was this a solid lifter or hydraulic?

I'm anxiously awaiting the model of the cam and valve springs. Did you take this up with the cam manufacturer for a warranty claim? Approximately how much run time was on this cam? I'm also curious to hear a more detailed description of the lifter base and cam lobe.

A oil related failure is typically progressive. No chips or anything like that, but rather the lifter is concaved, and starts to wear the lifter and lobe oddly. Eventually the lifter develops sharp edges from being concaved and stops rotating in the bore, rapidly wearing the lobe and lifter. You will hear a valve tap well before it gets to that point. It is impossible to ignore the sound of a cam or lifter failure, it is always there and progressively gets louder.

Run whatever oil helps you sleep at night, but for a mild flat tappet cam there are no special oil requirements. The factory cams in 20+ year old ski boats are about as mild as it gets. It's not until high spring pressures and rapid ramp rates that high zinc and phosphorus content are required.

Is there a reason you still use only a high zinc/phos oil in this engine now that it is a roller? Is it recommended by the cam manufacturer? Most of my experience is with Fords so I'm not familiar with BBC roller setups at all.

TRBenj wrote: You are in the minority when it comes to oil choice... everyone else Ive spoken to who is aware of potential zinc/flat tappet issues errs on the side of caution.

That's putting it mildly Tim. This is the first person I've ever heard that has not recommended the extra protection. This would include pro engine builders, book/magazine authors, engine manufacturers, auto manufacturers, aftermarket cam/valve train manufacturers, oil companies and the list goes on and on. All that combined highly educated knowledge that says you should run zinc/ZDDP on any flat tappet engine. Granted, I'll even admit some of it has to be purely profit minded but when you have people whose livelyhood hinges on a quality product that doesn't come back in pieces. I'm listening to their recommendations.

If this was indeed the case all zinc/ZDDP oil formulations would be virtually extinct with exception of a very few, special order, low avaialability, very high priced blends specifically for the extremely rare high lift/strong spring crowds. Crowds that are growing smaller daily as they upgrade to roller setups.

Sorry, I'm calling b******t.

this is from the corvette guys, and the guy testing the oil does it for a living. Your milage may vary and I have no preffered oils just passing a list along. Everything from here on down is copy and pasted from here:

More than you wanted to know about oil wear

Here’s the ranking list:

Wear protection reference categories are:

*** Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING protection

*** 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD protection

*** 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST protection

*** Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIREABLE

The higher the psi number, the better the wear protection.

1. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only synthetic = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phos = 3489 ppm
ZDDP= 3000 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

2. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi
zinc = 1669 ppm
phos = 1518 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm
NOTE: Due to its very low TBN value, this oil is only suitable for short term racing use, and is not suitable for street use.

3. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
zinc = 1472 ppm
phos = 1544 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

4. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi
zinc = 1180 ppm
phos = 1112 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

5. 30 wt Red Line Race Oil synthetic = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
ZDDP = 2100 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

6. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil synthetic = 95,360 psi
zinc = 1431 ppm
phos = 1441 ppm
ZDDP = 1400 ppm

7. 10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL semi-synthetic = 90,226 psi
zinc = 1221 ppm
phos = 955 ppm
ZDDP = 1000 ppm

8. 10W30 Joe Gibbs HR4 Hotrod Oil synthetic = 86,270 psi
zinc = 1247 ppm
phos = 1137 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

9. 15W40 RED LINE Diesel Oil synthetic, API CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CF/CH-4/CF-4/SM/SL/SH/EO-O = 85,663 psi
zinc = 1615 ppm
phos = 1551 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

10. 5W30 Lucas API SM synthetic = 76,584 psi
zinc = 1134 ppm
phos = 666 ppm
ZDDP = 900 ppm

11. 5W50 Castrol Edge with Syntec API SN, synthetic, formerly Castrol Syntec, black bottle = 75,409 psi
zinc = 1252 ppm
phos = 1197 ppm
ZDDP = 1200 ppm

12. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) synthetic = 74,860 psi
zinc = 1421 ppm
phos = 1338 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

13. 5W40 MOBIL 1 TURBO DIESEL TRUCK synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4 and ACEA E7 = 74,312 psi
zinc = 1211 ppm
phos = 1168 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

14. 15W40 CHEVRON DELO 400LE Diesel Oil, conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM, = 73,520 psi
zinc = 1519 ppm
phos = 1139 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

15. 15W40 MOBIL DELVAC 1300 SUPER Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4/SM, SL = 73,300 psi
zinc = 1297 ppm
phos = 1944 ppm
ZDDP = 1600 ppm

16. 15W40 Farm Rated Heavy Duty Performance Diesel, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF/SL, SJ (conventional) = 73,176 psi
zinc = 1325ppm
phos = 1234 ppm
ZDDP = 1200 ppm

17. 15W40 “NEW” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM = 72,022 psi
zinc = 1454 ppm
phos = 1062 ppm
ZDDP = 1200 ppm

18. 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,377 psi
zinc = 1621 ppm
phos = 1437 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

19. 15W40 “OLD” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4,CG-4,CF-4,CF,SL, SJ, SH = 71,214 psi
zinc = 1171 ppm
phos = 1186 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

20. 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 (semi-synthetic) = 71,206 psi
zinc = 1557 ppm
phos = 1651 ppm
ZDDP = 1600 ppm

21. 15W50 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic = 70,235 psi
zinc = 1133 ppm
phos = 1,168 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

22. 30wt Edelbrock Break-In Oil conventional = 69,160 psi
zinc = 1545 ppm
phos = 1465 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

23. 10W40 Edelbrock synthetic = 68,603 psi
zinc = 1193 ppm
phos = 1146 ppm
ZDDP = 100 ppm

24. 15W40 LUCAS MAGNUM Diesel Oil, conventional, API CI-4,CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF/SL = 66,476 psi
zinc = 1441 ppm
phos = 1234 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

25. 10W30 Royal Purple HPS (High Performance Street) synthetic = 66,211 psi
zinc = 1774 ppm
phos = 1347 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

26. 10W40 Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Oil conventional, API SJ = 65,553 psi
zinc = 1154 ppm
phos = 1075 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

27. 5W30 Klotz Estorlin Racing Oil, API SL synthetic = 64,175 psi
zinc = 1765 ppm
phos = 2468 ppm
ZDDP = 2100 ppm

28. “ZDDPlus” added to Royal Purple 20W50, API SN, synthetic = 63,595 psi
zinc = 2436 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2053 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
ZDDP = 2200 ppm
The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 24% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Most major Oil Companies say to NEVER add anything to their oils, because adding anything will upset the carefully balanced additive package, and ruin the oil’s chemical composition. And that is precisely what we see here. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

29. Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil conventional = 62,931 psi
zinc = 1170 ppm
phos = 1039 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

30. 10W30 Lucas Hot Rod & Classic Hi-Performance Oil, conventional = 62,538 psi
zinc = 2116 ppm
phos = 1855 ppm
ZDDP = 1900 ppm

31. 10W30 Comp Cams Muscle Car & Street Rod Oil, synthetic blend = 60,413 psi
zinc = 1673 ppm
phos = 1114 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

32. 10W40 Torco TR-1 Racing Oil with MPZ conventional = 59,905 psi
zinc = 1456 ppm
phos = 1150 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

33. “ZDDPlus” added to O’Reilly (house brand) 5W30, API SN, conventional = 56,728 psi
zinc = 2711 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2172 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
ZDDP = 2400 ppm
The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 38% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

34. 10W40 Summit Racing Premium Racing Oil, API SL conventional = 59,483 psi
zinc = 1764 ppm
phos = 1974 ppm
Claimed ZDDP level on the bottle = 1800 ppm
NOTE: Summit discontinued this line of oil, as of spring of 2013.

35. “ZDDPlus” added to Motorcraft 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 56,243 psi
zinc = 2955 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2114 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
ZDDP = 2500 ppm
The amount of ZDDPlus added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 12% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

36. “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” added to Royal Purple 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 54,044 psi
zinc = 1515 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1334 ppm (up 517 ppm)
ZDDP = 1400 ppm
The amount of Edelbrock Zinc Additive added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was a whopping 36% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc Additive was added to it. Adding Edelbrock Zinc Additive SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

37. 10W30 Comp Cams Break-In Oil conventional = 51,749 psi
zinc = 3004 ppm
phos = 2613 ppm
ZDDP = 2800 ppm

38. “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” added to Lucas 5W30, API SN, conventional = 51,545 psi
zinc = 1565 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1277 ppm (up 517 ppm)
ZDDP = 1400 ppm
The amount of Edelbrock Zinc Additive added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was a “breath taking” 44% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc Additive was added to it. Adding Edelbrock Zinc Additive SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

39. “Edelbrock Zinc Additive” added to Motorcraft 5W30, API SN, synthetic = 50,202 psi
zinc = 1680 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1275 ppm (up 517 ppm)
ZDDP = 1400 ppm
The amount of Edelbrock Zinc Additive added to the oil, was the exact amount the manufacturer called for on the bottle. And the resulting psi value here was 22% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc Additive was added to it. Adding Edelbrock Zinc Additive SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil’s wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

40. 30wt Lucas Break-In Oil conventional = 49,455 psi
zinc = 4483 ppm
phos = 3660 ppm
ZDDP = 4000 ppm

So, as you saw above, the highest ranking high zinc oil that provided the BEST WEAR PROTECTION of this group of 40 high zinc oils, had 3000 ppm ZDDP. But, the lowest ranking high zinc oil had one third MORE ZDDP at 4000 ppm. Even though this lowest ranked oil had far more zinc in it, it provided LESS THAN HALF AS MUCH WEAR PROTECTION, making it by far the worst of all 40 oils tested. Then the 4th place oil had only 1100 ppm ZDDP, and the 7th place oil had only 1000 ppm ZDDP.

I don't care what Cory has to say. I'm sticking with the ZDDP in the 54, 64 and 77.

BTW Cory, I have seen several trashed cams when run without ZDDP and this was AFTER they were broken in. Two were out of Chris/Hercules and a third out of a Gray/AMC.