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Electical puzzle

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JEFF KOSTIS View Drop Down
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    Posted: February-26-2006 at 8:56pm
   John, Tim, I will do a lot for a full fridge!!
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Martinique87 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2006 at 8:49pm
After running a 10 gauge wire and not getting any difference on the gauge I kinda figured I wouldnt worry to much about the gauge and just make sure the alternator/voltage regulator are working well. Just for the heck of it I will run a parallel 8 guage ground. At that point I feel like I've done everythig possible.

Once again, I appreciate all the help!

John...You've got the right idea

Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2006 at 8:05pm
Jeff: I just love these electrical posts. Don't understand 'em but love 'em none the less. If the '80 ever gets electrical problems I am just gonna save myself some stress and send ya an airline ticket to Orlando and stock up the garage fridge.

john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEFF KOSTIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2006 at 7:32pm
    Tim, you are getting about 1/2 volt drop across the ground feed to the dash fron the engine block, then paralelling another wire to it should drop it down. You will need at least a #8 wire to cut the voltage drop about a little more than half of what you have now. When you add the parallel wire, check the measurement with voltmeter again, and it should go from .48 (existing) to something lower when you hook on the parallel wire. Honestly, if thats all your running for accessories, I wouldnt get to nervous about it. I would fix the alternator so she does at least 13.8 volts. As far as the volmeter goes, its really not accurate where it is wired in. This is true with most voltmeters I have seen. If you really want to get fancy, you would have to run a seperate fused run (hot and ground) from the battery cables where they go on the engine to feed the voltmeter directly, eliminating the dash wiring to it. You would also have to put a small relay (very common at any auto parts store) at the voltmeter, tied into the ign switch so the voltmeter doesnt run 24/7 and drain your battery.
    As far as the alternator goes (and being marine) I have always had mine rebuilt at our local alternator/starter repair shop. You can check the diodes with a digital voltmeter using the diode check. Should get anywhere from .5 to .8 volts drop in the forward direction and nothing in reverse.
    My recommendation is to either buy new, or remove the regulator and alt and bring it in to a shop. It cost me about 90 bucks 3 yrs ago to fix. This also included new bearings which are just as important.
    Good luck as always!!
                                  Jeff....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2006 at 2:46pm
Update...I ran another ground from the main negative terminal behind the dash to the the engine block but there was no change?

Any other ideas?

Tim



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2006 at 8:24am
Looks like I need to run another ground wire and replace the diode trio in the alternator. I'm heading out of town tomorrow so it will be next weekend before I can work on it. I'l llet youknow the results. Thanks again all.

Hey, just out of curiosity, how do you test if the voltage regulator is bad or the ealternator itself. I have an external voltage regulator, if that matters.

Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEFF KOSTIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2006 at 7:58pm
    Hey Tim, those numbers make more sense!! I am concerned about the voltage the alternator is putting out. It seems that you might have lost a diode in it and are getting reduced output. It should be at least 13.5 at the batt terminals, and about 14 at the alternator output stud. I would first get the alternator repaired because it shouldnt drop that low with those accessories on. (By the way, I had the exact same problem with my 76 M17 with the original 302 engine when I bought it). As far as the rest of the voltage drop goes, it seems as though you need to increase the size of the ground wire from the engine to the dash. You are loosing almost 1/2 volt just in that. If you want to confirm, take a set of jumper cables and use one half of it to jumper between the engine block and the main ground bus/wire at the dash (this basically runs another parallel ground path to the dash). With the accessories on, you should be able to watch the voltmeter on the dash go up when you connect the jumpers cables.
Hope this also helps!! I enjoy to see the outcome!!
                             Jeff...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2006 at 7:29am
New numbers

With blower, nav lights and bilge on, RPM at 1000


A = 0.43
B = 0.18
C = 13.15
D= 12.49

While I was hooked up for "D" I switched one lead to the engine block ground (meassuring across main positive at dash to main engine ground) and got 12.9 Seems consistent with the reading in "A".

Also while this was going on the voltage across the battery terminals was 13.1

Hope I got it right this time.

Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2006 at 9:26pm
Jeff,

You called it. While, I was carefull to measure just what you asked for I missed the part where you said to run the test with the accessories on.   Sorry about that. I'll re-run tests A-D tomorrow morning with everything on and post the results.

You asked what I used for a ground on the later tests. I ran an 18ga jumper wire from the main ground on the engine block. Just to see what would happen I also tried it using one of the mounting screws on my morse control and got the same numbers


I'll be looking for your reply.

Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEFF KOSTIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2006 at 8:33pm
    It seems as though the measurements in A,B,C,D dont make sense. Its like the measurements were taken wwith no loads. You should be loosing way more than .04 volts unless you have welding cable feeding the dash. Maybe I confused you on the steps because the other info you gave makes perfect sense. 13.0 volts from dash + terminal to ground makes sense, then lowers as you turn on accessories. What did you use for a ground on that measurement?? Was it at the dash also?? The object of the game to find where you are loosing voltage by measuring the voltage from one end of a wire to the other.
    For example, you are loosing .15 volts across the ign. push button with accessories on. So if you were to then ground the meter on the engine block and measure the FEED to the ign push button, and lets say it reads 13.2 volts. If you then move the meter to the other terminal(OUTPUT), then you should read 13.05 volts. This is because you are loosing .15 volts through that switch. Notice 13.2 volts minus 13.05 volts equals .15 volts that you measured across it.
    It also sounds like all the accessories run with the ign pushswitch since you get more voltage drop across the switch when more are turned on.
    Need to recheck the steps ABCD and see whats goin on. Step D should be your low 12.5 volt range like the voltmeter in the boat. Hope this all helps and doesnt confuse you too much!! You certainly are thourough (sp?) in your testing. That is cool!
    Good luck!!                 Jeff...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2006 at 6:10pm
Jeff; I gotta see how you answer all those numbers. Wonder if J_I_H will weight in on this.

john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2006 at 12:30pm
pps,

oops, should have said there was NO change between 600 and 1000 rpm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2006 at 10:09am
PS...there was change between 600 and 1000 RPMs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2006 at 10:04am
Glad you're there Jeff. This stuff makes my head spin.

I think I found the main positive and ground wires comming in. They feed into a plug which then splits out and supplies the gauges, lights etc. However, I couldnt find a place to make the readings so I stuck a pin in each wire for the recordings. Hope that doesnt affect accuracy. Heres the data you requested.

A) 0.02
B) 0.04
C) 13.47
D) 13.45

What does this tell you? My guess isI'm losing a little on the positive side and have a decent main ground. Is that correct?
If so I suppose the main problem is "downstream" in the gauge wiring itself?

Here is some other info in case it's helpful


At 600 RPMs.....
Voltage from alternator "+"cable to engine block =13.52
Voltage across battery = 13.46
Dash voltage gauge reading = 12.6
Voltage across dash voltage gauge terminals = 12.9
Voltage from dash "+" terminal to ground = 13.00
same asabove with blower on = 12.72
same as above with blower and lights = 12.5
same as above with blower, lights and bilge pump = 12.35
same as above with lights only = 12.65
same as above with bilge pumponly =12.69


At the push button igniton circut breaker (not key ignition)
when running,"+" to actual ground = 13.42

Across push button "ignition" terminals = 0.06
with blower 0.09
blower and lights = 0.14
blower lights and bilge = 0.15


ENGINE SHUT OFF
across battery = 12.95


So whats the diagnosis doc?

Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote surroundsound64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by JEFF KOSTIS JEFF KOSTIS wrote:

     Note: on all readings dont worry about the polarity of the meter leads, just take the voltage reading number.

Unless he's got an analog meter! hehe.
The digital won't matter though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEFF KOSTIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 8:28pm
    Thanks Jear! Someday we will talk again about 66 blocks! White, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate.

Martinique87, sorry for the short hi-jack of the post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 8:20pm
Jeff: I love it when you do electrical posts!

john
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEFF KOSTIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 7:48pm
    You are definately getting a serious voltage drop in one of the main lines to the dash. A very easy wat to tell which line it is(hot or ground) thats feeding the dash is by doing this. Engine running at fast idle with the blower and lights on.

A) Take a digital voltmeter and measure between the ground wire at the dash and the engine block and record the voltage. Note: on all readings dont worry about the polarity of the meter leads, just take the voltage reading number.

B) Take the voltmeter and go between the dash hot main feed wire and the positive battery terminal at the engine and record the voltage.

C) Take the voltmeter and go between the engine ground and the batt positive wire at the engine like in step B and record the voltage.

D) Take the voltmeter and measure the voltage at the dash from the main ground wire to the main hot wire and record the voltage.

Now take the results and look at them. Steps A and B are measuring how much voltage you are loosing in that particular wire. If you take the voltage from step D and add the losses from steps A and B to it, you should end up with the voltage reading of step C.

Hope this helps! This is a FOR SURE way to tell where the major problems are without GUESSWORK!! Good Luck!!
                             Jeff...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote surroundsound64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 4:16pm
Ah, if all the guages drop, that's a problem. Ground sounds like the most likely, but as you said, that sounds like a chore if they are all in series. Good luck with that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 2:03pm
Now for the dash gauges. While I was talking with Woody I asked him about that. He recommended two things. First, he recommended re-grounding all of the gauges. He asked me if the temp gauges changes when I hit the blower...sure enough it does, by about 5 degrees. Apparently that's a classic sign of a grounding problem. Second he recommended cleaning all connections between the battery and the gauges (e.g., the wiring harnes plug by the driver's side vlave cover).

I did the second one and while there was plenty of green gunk, it did'nt change anything on the dash.

Running a new ground looks like a big project since each gauges is wired in series with the one next to it. But I may have to do it.

Thanks surroundsound for the help. Glad to know I'm okay as long as the battery is getting 13.5 volts.

Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 1:47pm
Okay, part of the problem solved. Looks like the PO purchased the starter and solenoid form a local shop that aparently has used non-standard parts and sells them as "marine" quality.

I walked into Southeast Correct Craft and from across the room Woody sees my starter and says "Thats not approved equipment". He then fills me in on the practices of the shop the PO purchsed from.

As best as I can tell, the starter was the root problem but it also messed up even the genuine marine solenoids I installed and one automotive one too. I know, should't use automotive parts. I just bought it to use while testing...after blowing a few $35 solenoids I opted to experiement with an $8 for trouble shooting. However, even that turned out to be a bad decision. The last failure probably due to that.

Now with a new starter and a new marine solenoid so far so good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote surroundsound64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 12:51pm
In order for a 12v batt to charge, it has to have more than 12v put to it. Typically they are around 14. Your voltmeter would be the correct reading.
As long as when the engine is running the meter on your dash isn't showing a negative charge your in good shape.
I hope this makes sense. I could draw a better picture than I can explain it. Basically, when the alternator is being used, anything that is wired in parallel with it that is less voltage than it is (the battery) is a load, therfore it puts puts voltage into it. Although that's not really the correct term. Voltage is a measure if the difference in and out. You probably get what I mean.

It is normal for the volatage on the dash to drop when there is more of a load.

There has to be something somewhere wired wrong, most likely in or out of the solenoid. This happened on me once in my 86 Ford. I got a new solenoid b/c the old one was shot, but I got the wrong part.

I would initially think that the magnetic flux is keep the solenoid shut, but Jeff makes a good point too. It could be the high current.

Not sure if any of that helped or not. hehe. But you shouldn't have to worry about the dash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2006 at 5:38am
Thanks Jeff, I'll do just that and reply back.

There is one more thing. Maybe it's related may not be. Puting a voltmeter to the battery while the engine is running shows around 13.5 volts. However, the gauge on the dash only shows 12volts. I put the meter on the terminals of the dash's voltmeter and it read 12 as well. So I assume the on-board gauge is functioning correctly.

When I power on the blower, bilge pump, etc., the voltage at the dash drops to 10.5-11 but the voltage at the battery stays around 13.35 with everything on.

What do you think is cuasing this and is it related to the starter problem?

Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEFF KOSTIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2006 at 9:11pm
    The only possible way for the starter to run continuously, is by the solenoid either being stuck or energized(due to a backfeed or ign wiring problem). Disconnect the batt cable at the starter, and use a test light at the cable that feeds the starter to get it to fail and troubleshoot. Disconnecting the starter cable and using the test light will prevent you from destroying the flywheel or starter until you find it.
    If the test light always goes out when you release the key, then it maybe the solenoid contacts welding themselves together with the high current draw of the starter.
    Good luck!!
                                   Jeff..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Martinique87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-22-2006 at 4:57pm
Hi guys. Need somehelp on this one. The starter in my 351 pcm does not want to stop..literaly   I turn the key off and the starter is still going. I push the ignition button and its still going. Its intermittent but becomeing more frequent.

Thus far I have installed a new igntion switch, replaced the solenoid (relay) 3 times, and just put in a new starter. Though the probolem was gone with the new starter installed but around the10th time I started it...guess what, it wouldnt shut off.

Here is one other piece of information. When installing the solenoid I was carefull to move one wire over at a time to ensure they were all in the proper position. Just for the heck of it, after the last event, I read the instructions and realized that it was wired backward (hey, when all else fails). In other words the cable from the battery was attached to the starter post and vie versa.

Tomorrow i'll try things with the fourth solenoid and the propper wiring but thought I check with you guys because my luck so far on this has not been good.

Tim
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