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Fish Nautique Repower

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayTony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fish Nautique Repower
    Posted: February-14-2014 at 2:52pm
Quick reference.
78 fish nautique
At the moment running tired 351W RR MAYBE 260 HP (i dont know) with a 13X9 wheel.
I want more power and more speed, and need to have reliability.
After pricing out my options and weighing my pros and cons i pretty much have come down to two options i have available to me. Either buy a 454 complete engine or build a stroker 351-408.

I have a complete 454 with gear fully rebuilt that I can purchase for roughly the same amount i would have into building a stroker out of a 351. SO as far as the motor goes its one or the other, its not a big difference price wise at this point.
the 454 is a GEN 3 454XL crusader, makes around 350Hp. Has a velvet drive 2.0:1 model 20-01-004

Pros and cons of each motor that i figure on, and they pretty much outweigh each other from what i figure. just depends where i would rather spend my time. either in front of the hone or in the bilge.

New prop will be needed either way i go.
-With the 454 I may need a new gear because the one it comes with is 2.0:1 need to take a ride to the prop shop to see what my options are.
-stroker would require less R&D when it comes to installing it,
-but 454 would require less R&D to put together since its already complete.
-I would have to get the stroker run on dyno to get HP and torque specs to decide correct wheel.
-454 the torque info is all available to look up since its a production motor.
-fitment is in question for the 454 but im quite certain i could shoehorn it in there.
-cost-wise they're fairly equal between the two and not a huge concern but still a factor. the 454 being more after all is said and done.
-stroker adds cool factor, but a big block is still a big block and has nothing to prove.

keep in mind the Fish is a little bit different of a boat than most of the boats on this forum, being a very Deep-V hull and a pretty heavy laid hull. Ocean 90% of its life and would not be uncommon to have 75Gals of fuel a 50 gal of seawater in the livewell and 4 crew and gear on board. beer and ice.
SO-
454 or 408
what would you do?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-14-2014 at 3:58pm
You wont need to dyno the 408w to determine where it makes peak hp. You should know almost exactly what it should be capable of (and where) before you even assemble it- its all in component selection. You wont get a RH rotation engine on a dyno anyways.

If you go with a reduction transmission (1.23, 1.5, 2.0) on a big block, that will require a change to a larger shaft (1-1/8" at least, possibly 1-1/4" on the 1.5 or 2.0). Add a new shaft, strut, log and packing gland into the budget equation.

The 454 will certainly fit, as it was a factory option in the Fish (as well as other boats) but the real question is whether it will fit with the longer reduction transmission. Might want to talk to someone who has a 454 Fish and see how much room they have behind the 1:1 72C. There is no extra room to fit a longer transmission in our 454 powered v-hull Barefoot Nautique, though that is an incrementally smaller boat (19').

There is no replacement for displacement as they say, but you would have to be pretty conservative on the 408w build for it to end up with less power than that factory non-HO 454. What kind of budget are you talking about for the build, and what would you be paying for vs. doing yourself?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-14-2014 at 9:33pm
I'm going make my .02 cent comment here. If you are looking for reliability, I'd say the 454 is the way to go rather than the stroker?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-14-2014 at 11:14pm
What about grade of gas required - will they be the same? When you sell the boat would a 'crate' motor get any more resale $? Differences in warranty?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 12:05am
Stroke the big block 72c 1:1 little more pitch have fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 11:59am
even as a chev guy i would do the mods and rebuild on the ford   it makes everything easier .
former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 12:26pm
Pete, you're going to have to quantify that assertion on reliability.

Chris, grade of gas will depend on the chosen compression ratio. The 408 could be built to run on 89 if that was a priority.

A stroker big block would be big fun but a lot more $$ to build than the SBF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 12:48pm
Not really I only have $3200 invested into mine.The parts are plentiful and cheap if you don't mine piece by piece shopping.World tall deck block(optional)ebay$860,4.250crank$300,6.800 eagle H beam rods((new)only bidder $100, had to pay for good pistons $700,and of coarse the all important RR roller cam $750 add rings and bearings machine and balance not too bad for 565ci 10:1 BBC shortblock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Pete, you're going to have to quantify that assertion on reliability.

In my mind, a stroked engine simply isn't as reliable as stock. Correct me if I'm wrong! Keep in mind this is an off shore application.

BTW, how many stroked engines has Joe gone through?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TX Foilhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 3:42pm
I want to see someone that can drive a Fish around offshore all the time at WOT.

Given what it's going in I doubt either motor would see enough RPM's regularly to make a huge difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 4:08pm
Think with bigger inches and lots more power more can be done at lower rpm making it more reliable long lasting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 6:22pm
Pete, in short: you're wrong ;)

Seriously, when comparing a stock engine to it's stroked counterpart, piston speeds and loads are obviously higher. But there are a number of ways to build that stroker- stronger (forged) crank, connecting rods and pistons are options. So not all strokers are created equal, which makes an apples to apples comparison difficult. Clearly a stroker could be built similarly conservatively as a stock engine- or more so. Stronger bottom end, low flow heads, small cam, low compression, etc. A 1.25+:1 hp/ci 6000rpm monster may or may not be as inherently reliable, but Joe's failures have been well documented and can be traced to issues that weren't directly related to having a stroker crank sitting in the bottom end.

Whether or not a stroker 351w could be built as reliably as a stock 454 is an even harder comparison to make. I do think that the right selection of components combined with a skilled installer could result in a combo that was at least equally reliable with comparable, or even a moderate hp advantage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 7:16pm
The lower end is built to spin 6500-7000rpm with a cam,heads,intake for 1500-5500 use.Probably overkill but rotating assembly is rated for much more horsepower but it has to have a reasonable idle and low speed manners.It's only 1/4 more stroke with a huge bore.Block is capable of 632 inches for not much more money but think that would be a big mistake for reliable motor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 8:29pm
I have to agree with Tim on this one also, I think no matter what you put in you will not be running a boat of this sort wot for a fraction of the time during its use , a reputable shop built stroker of either brand using components designed for performance application should if designed and properly assembled last many more hours than you will ever put on any boat . by the time you run it into the ground it wont matter what motor it is the boat will need so much other work you will start over again. the ford motor is in it everything from exhaust, wiring, mounts, trans , and hoses, will match up better and quicker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 9:14pm
Tim and Peter,
Excellent points on the stroker build. I take back my choice/comment on the 454.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-15-2014 at 9:20pm
If you have all the components for the small block Ford, build a low end torque, endurance engine. It's 200 lbs. or so lighter.

Most of the running hours will be under 2000/2500 rpm and that's were a 454 chevy shines.

Flip a coin and don't look back, it's that close.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-16-2014 at 11:37am
I'd look at that project and realize how much easier it is to stay with the Ford, as Peter said above. For me it wouldn't be a choice, just too many details to figure out with the 454.

If you still are considering both, see if you can get a torque/HP chart for each and put them side by side. You know how that boat feels out of the hole, just getting on plane, and holding those speeds. I'd try to figure out which engine will pull strongest from idle to 3,500 rpm and go that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hussler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-16-2014 at 7:32pm
How bad is the 351w? Low compression?

I would be inclined to do a heads cam intake upgrade on a rebuilt stock short block. If you got the money do an efi upgrade as well!

I swapped a 302 for a 390 in a century, even though the 390Fe was an option for that year it was still a pain. In hindsight we wish we had just gotten another small block. The 390 does sound pretty dirty through
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-17-2014 at 1:04pm

I could go either way for a fish nautique in need of a bit more power. Actual hp desired will dictate the cost of either scenario. Since you don’t want to take apart your working 351w.   I would be on the lookout for a fuel injected-fresh water cooled 454 used. They are often replaced as a pair, maybe get one blown up that comes will all the accessories that was pulled out for a more modern package.   I don’t know that I would spend a whole lot of money keeping a fish nautique rh either. If you are talking about going up to a big block and getting a new transmission because of it, then the best route might be a lh 454 with a pcm 1.23:1. Would get you back a little of your weight increase and be a nice reliable package with a fair amount of available propellers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-17-2014 at 1:30pm
Tim, the fish automatically had a 1-1/8" regardless of the engine selection I believe. Da Fish Tique is a SBF and spins a 1-1/8". But I agree a BBC with the 2.0 in rough water and higher throttle near peak torque would be a candidate for some shaft twisting potential.

Like Joe said, if you want maximum in reliability and longevity a fuel injected BBC might be the route to go.

If a stroker is assembled correctly it could be every bit as reliable. Pete's connotation of a stroker engine more resembles a high HP big rpm engine. If it was more tame and stroked to achieve torque at cruise operating rpm it won't have reliability issues as long as it doesn't have a ton of exotic pieces inside. Like Tim said, generally components used in a stroker engine build are of extremely high quality and strength and used at much less than their rated hp or rpm they will last a ridiculously long amount of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-17-2014 at 1:54pm
That's why I went with an aftermarket high nickel block,high priority oiling all internals rated for almost 1500hp with no intentions of spinning much over 5k.Only want to do this once..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayTony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2014 at 8:57am
Hey guys, thanks alot for all the points and advise.
TRBenj, I'm fairly certain the reduction trans would fit regardless because i have some room up from and the gear already has a down angle on the output. that being said the 2.0:1 is most likely not even an option now. I don't think i can swing any bigger than a 14" wheel anyways.
As far as budget goes under the 5k mark is my goal after all is said and done and i'm off to the races. keep in mind all and any machine work and assembling i will be doing myself.

Phatsat I believe you are correct about the shaft, I'm pretty sure its 1.125"
Call me crazy because I know everyone recommends the fuel injected route but i assure you, the only thing that would stop me from putting a carburetor in this thing is a new diesel power plant.I have seen too many customers miss half their seasons due to fuel injection issues and modules.

Does anyone know which gear and which ratio came in these boats? (the fish nautique) 78'
My name plates are long gone and i'm trying to figure out if i can change it to work with standard rotation.

My goal is definitely cheaper pump gas, i'm not looking to win any races, most of it's life will be as follows. Short warm up trip out of the channel, 1-3 hour steam at cruise speed or better depending on conditions, drifting most of the day or trolling at Low RPMs then 1-3 hour steam home (hopefully holding equal to if not more weight in fish than fuel burnt)

as waterdog says," flip a coin and don't look back, it's that close" has literally been where I have been sitting for a while with that coin in my hand but I have issues with commitment. That's why i own boats. I don't have anyone to ask if i can :)

Building a 454 from scratch is out of the question, i'm not looking to deal with finding the right externals right now. My only real option for BBC at this point is to buy that 454 crusader i spoke of which is all assembled and complete, we just haven't run it yet. I work at a machine shop and it's one we have here in stock that we built when things were slow.
The 351 I already have a carb and intake, so that bumps about $800 off the parts list anyways. in short, big items i'm looking at are cam, heads, rotating assembly, pan, girdle, bearings, gaskets, pumps.
parts list comes in cheaper than i would pay for the crusader minus any work done to the gear or if i bought a new one. to bolt the 454 in place would not be a huge chore, just would obviously be more work than the 351. everything is coming out anyways.
Is 1.23:1 what they put behind the 454s in the later fish nautiques do you know?

I wish i could just flip a coin and not look back really but i prefer to go into this knowing exactly what i'm coming out with.
So I am going to sit down with the book this week and come up with a build list for the stroker, once i find out what gear i have find out what i need to do about that.
I am also going to look into a new gear for he BBC depending what i have in the boat now i may be able to use it with the BBC. i'm also going to get out to the boat and see exactly what changes need to be done and what parts I need.if i go this way.
this way i'm looking at my options a little more accurately.
Stay tuned.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2014 at 11:10am
First year that was used is 1989. I bet being a new transmission on a last year of production boat they probably still used the 1:1 BW. Should have been a standard 1:1 71c or 72 Borg Warner. Regardless anything older than 89 wouldn't have used the 1:23.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2014 at 11:41am
Call me crazy, but that 454 with the 2.0 reduction, 1 1/8 shaft and with a MC powerslot prop 14x18 could quite close the right combination for a boat that size and loaded to work/fish
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2014 at 12:39pm
I think he'd need more prop than that, Tom. Several accounts indicate that the stock prop size was 14x11 with a 351w and 1:1. 14x18 with a 2:1 would be propped down relative to that... and the big block would want to go in the other direction. Even the big block MC's with 1.5:1 ran 14x20. Id say that would be the minimum to consider... and thats getting into some oddball sizes, at least in the ski boat world.

1-1/8" shaft and hardware does open up your options. Im still not convinced you have the room for a reduction trans though- got a picture of how the engine/trans sits in the boat? Down angle or not, reduction transmissions are quite a bit longer. You couldnt fit anything bigger than a 1:1 72c in our BFN- its tucked in with no room to spare.

I dont think the Fish ever got the 1.23, but I could be wrong. Maybe a few 89's with the 351w got them, assuming they fit. Keep in mind that the case is aluminum on the PCM trans.

The carb and intake from the 351w would be pretty major choke points on a stroker... but if youre building a 4500rpm 350hp 408, they might do just fine. Another consideration would be the engine cover/center console. How wide is it? Would it fit over the big block?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayTony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2014 at 6:47pm
The big block would def fit under the console, it will be a little tighter to fork on but would fit.
As for the Carb and intake i was talking about i should have said, it is a holley 750 and edelbrock performer which i have sitting on the shelf. which in my book would be the perfect combo for a stroker.
If we were talking stock stuff than yes it would be restricting.
I did not realize that about the PCM gear, aluminum casing and the wet bilge of the fish are asking for trouble. . if possible i'm going to stick with the one i have. A lot of the BW gears are capable of running RH and LH, hopefully this one is. if not i bite that bullet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2014 at 7:04pm
All of the velvet drives should be capable of turning in either direction by correctly indexing the pump. Of course, they cannot reverse the direction of the engine like the 1.23... the direction of the prop will match that of the motor. Until you post a picture showing oodles of room behind your existing transmission, I'll continue to caution that you might not be able to fit a reduction transmission in there (PCM, BW or otherwise)!

"Perfect" is relative to the type of build you have in mind, which we've yet to nail down... the 750 is on the large side and the Performer is on the restrictive side for a 408ci but both are a good step in the right direction vs. stock. No concern with the aluminum intake on a salty boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2014 at 8:26pm
Tony,
I don't think anyone has asked yet and I typically do! What's the condition of the stringers?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayTony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-20-2014 at 3:19am
Im getting a new wheel no matter what so direction of rotation wont be of worry.
You may be right about the red gear. I cannot get any better pictures till the snow melts. Ill see what i have in stock for photos.

As far as the stringers go they are not mint. They are sound enough at this point and if plans go accordingly next winters project will entail taking up the deck and changing some things around a bit under there. And some stringer work as needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote northstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2014 at 12:21am
I Have a 78 Fish with engine out now. What pictures or info do you need.
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