Fuel Pump? |
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Butter77
Newbie Joined: July-30-2011 Location: K-Ville, NC Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Posted: April-06-2014 at 11:42am |
Went out on Friday after replacing the transfer tube in the carb with the new style and pumping out all the old gas with new stuff. It was extremely hard starting and idled like a big block with a huge cam in it. Took the plugs out and they were fouled beyond belief. Replaced the powervalve and spark plugs yesterday morning, and solved that issue. However, still have a miss in the engine up to 3k. After running over 3k for about 5-10 seconds, I'll get a popping through the carb and the engine will die out not long after the secondaries open up. It won't run right until I go back to idle for a few seconds. The miss in the lower rpm seemed to get worse the longer we were out. Does this sound like a fuel pump? The pickup and siphon valve are clear, so no obstruction, and the secondary metering plate is clear. I'm about at my wits end trying to figure this out.
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Maybe the ignition system needs attention too .. .
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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Butter77
Newbie Joined: July-30-2011 Location: K-Ville, NC Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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EI module, rotor, cap, coil, ballast resistor all new start of season. Only plug wires haven't been changed yet.
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oldcuda
Senior Member Joined: June-22-2010 Status: Offline Points: 474 |
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Idled like a big block with a huge cam?So what's problem ? Only kidding had a similar problem years ago turned out to be ballast putting too much voltage to coil causing same high rpm missfire/crossfire.
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peter1234
Grand Poobah Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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mis and skip up to 3 k rpms sounds like primary issues in the carb. maybe something blocked
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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The speed specific popping and die-out make me wonder about initial timing and then advance. As for the fuel pump question, only way to know for sure is put a fuel gauge on it.
So I'd say check fuel pressure first to rule that out, then put a timing light on it. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Did you time it after the new EI module? |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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+1 ^^
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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Hey Zach, +1 what? +1 degree btc initial? +1 psi fuel pressure? +1 quart of oil? You've got to be more specific. (J/K !!!) Matt, nice looking boat! I read the diary entry and maybe your stereo is just sucking all the power out of the engine! That's 3 of us pointing toward timing, maybe get a light on it and start there. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Ha, I was pointing at Eddie.
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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What's the new style transfer tube mean?
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peter1234
Grand Poobah Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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I still say carb..
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Thats the tube that goes between the primary and secondary bowl. The old ones had a crimp on each end to seat the o rings that sealed the tube to the bowl. The new ones are shorter and use a special seal like a top hat with a hole in the top |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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Thanks Gary.
Are the new tubes backwards compatible with the older carbs? That tube couldn't be part of the problem then, could it? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Yes they are,you could not even get the old style for quite some time now.
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Butter77
Newbie Joined: July-30-2011 Location: K-Ville, NC Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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I never did check the timing after replacing the EI module. Sounds like I need to hook the hose up to it tomorrow and check that. Anyone have a list of what they used to set up a fuel pressure gauge? I have the metal line still, so I'll need to fab up something and put an order in to Summit to get a couple things probably. From what I'm thinking, wouldn't it just be better to go ahead and put a new fuel pump on it then spend $20,$30, or $40 on making a fuel line to check the fuel pressure?
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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If you never set the timing after the EI install the timing is going to be way off. The fuel pump has nothing to do with that so why replace it?
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Matt,
The fuel pump will have NTP threads in the body. Why go to Summit when a trip to the hardware store will work. A tee and a nipple will do the job. Yes, you will need to bend the hard line at the pump some to make it work but not by much. I agree with Eddie - why not test first before throwing money at something you THINK is wrong! |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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Pete (or anyone), what do you like/use for thread sealant on fuel lines?
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Brass to brass or brass to die cast being both soft materials really don't need a thread sealant however, I do use a small wrap of Teflon tape.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4231 |
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I've had good luck with brass to brass for water, but have had a few fuel drips so prefer to use sealant. I used some pipe sealant but a friend told me not to, that it wasn't suited for fuel and you don't want to risk any seeping past the threads when you tighten.
Tape sounds good to me, didn't realize it was OK for fuel. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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I still have a few of the old tubes floating around Gary. It seems a little easier to get those in without boogering up the seal vs. the new hat style seals that will slide off to the side of the tube sometimes. that's just my .02.
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Butter77
Newbie Joined: July-30-2011 Location: K-Ville, NC Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Geeze Louise...do I feel like a shmuck.....Hooked up the boat to the old recycle bin filled with water and started it up. Put the timing light to it and BAM.....I'm pretty sure you could hear the foul language out of my mouth for a mile away....While the light was blinking well short of the timing marks, I would guestimate about 40-45 BTDC. How was it even running there? Reset it to 10 degrees and locked down. Restarted several times to make sure it didnt' move. Got the engine to rev to 3200 (more like JUMP, never done that before so easily, even with no load) and saw about 26 on the timing. Is 16 degrees advance enough? Tried to do some quick looking on the phone but couldn't come up with an answer right away. Does this also explain cutting out after the secondaries opened up, since the timing was probably around 55-60 BTDC?
Side note on the new style transfer tube- I put the tube into the seals first, then put vasoline on the outer surfaces of the seals. Put one end into the primary bowl that was still on the carb, and the other end went in without a hitch when the secondary bowl was put on. That was LOADS easier then messing with those dang o-rings. I could never get them to seal right no matter what I tried. |
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peter1234
Grand Poobah Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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I was wrong again.......
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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Eddie gets a gold star! Zach, CQ will give you a hand shandy.
Always check ignition before messing with the carb. Anytime you go deeper into the dizzy than the rotor, you MUST retime! 16 deg of advance is on the shy side, but not uncommon for a stock engine. Try 12-14 of initial and see how it likes it. If it starts nice and runs a little better, I'd leave it. 34-36 total would be ideal but you usually aren't giving up much performance so long as you're getting 30-32. |
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Butter77
Newbie Joined: July-30-2011 Location: K-Ville, NC Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Where would I expect to see the 30's on the timing? 3500? 4000? I wasn't much interested to go past 3200 on the bucket, but I guess that would be easier then at speed trying to watch the light.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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It should be all in by 3k but check that too.
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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My original Prestolite similarly had 18 deg of advance, & it didn't get there until about 4K.
I had my upgrade dizzy tuned at a shop to give 23 deg advance, all in at 3K like Tim said. It has not given me any trouble. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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My NOS presto seems a little lazy on the all in rpm. I think if I remember it's around 3800. My boat is set at 32 total. With more initial they start a little easier and don't feel as lazy going into gear at idle.
That's all Eddie, I just agreed after the fact ha. I was going to play around 32 and 36 total but my timing light took a *************** at the end of the season last year. |
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Butter77
Newbie Joined: July-30-2011 Location: K-Ville, NC Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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UPDATE: Well that helped! Above 3000 it runs like a fat kid chasing a cupcake (I can say that because most of the time I'm the fat kid). Below 3000 it didn't want to run hardly at all. I adjusted the accelerator pump and idle mixture screws to get that all sorted out and the timing set at 14 degree initial. By the end of the day it was running as well as ever. Then trouble....Running around 3500 back to the dock for about a minute when it just cut out. No trying to save it, the thing just died. Turned everything off for about 10 seconds, and then took a good solid 15 seconds of turning over and pumping the throttle to get it going. Got back up to 3000 to get back to the dock and cut out 10 seconds later. Did this 2 more times. It would idle fine at the dock, and started back up just fine to put on the trailer. I was thinking we ran out of fuel, but still had 10-11 gallons in the tank. I'll check the pickup, anti siphon, and fuel filter tomorrow to see if anything was picked up.
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