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Fuel Pump?

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Butter77 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butter77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fuel Pump?
    Posted: April-06-2014 at 11:42am
Went out on Friday after replacing the transfer tube in the carb with the new style and pumping out all the old gas with new stuff. It was extremely hard starting and idled like a big block with a huge cam in it. Took the plugs out and they were fouled beyond belief. Replaced the powervalve and spark plugs yesterday morning, and solved that issue. However, still have a miss in the engine up to 3k. After running over 3k for about 5-10 seconds, I'll get a popping through the carb and the engine will die out not long after the secondaries open up. It won't run right until I go back to idle for a few seconds. The miss in the lower rpm seemed to get worse the longer we were out. Does this sound like a fuel pump? The pickup and siphon valve are clear, so no obstruction, and the secondary metering plate is clear. I'm about at my wits end trying to figure this out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2014 at 12:09pm
Maybe the ignition system needs attention too .. .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butter77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2014 at 12:12pm
EI module, rotor, cap, coil, ballast resistor all new start of season. Only plug wires haven't been changed yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2014 at 12:36pm
Idled like a big block with a huge cam?So what's problem ? Only kidding had a similar problem years ago turned out to be ballast putting too much voltage to coil causing same high rpm missfire/crossfire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2014 at 8:21pm
mis and skip up to 3 k rpms sounds like primary issues in the carb. maybe something blocked
former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 9:40am
The speed specific popping and die-out make me wonder about initial timing and then advance. As for the fuel pump question, only way to know for sure is put a fuel gauge on it.

So I'd say check fuel pressure first to rule that out, then put a timing light on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 10:57am
Originally posted by Butter77 Butter77 wrote:

EI module, rotor, cap, coil, ballast resistor all new start of season.


Did you time it after the new EI module?
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



Eddie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 11:26am
+1 ^^
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 11:37am
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

+1 ^^

Hey Zach, +1 what? +1 degree btc initial? +1 psi fuel pressure? +1 quart of oil? You've got to be more specific. (J/K !!!)

Matt, nice looking boat! I read the diary entry and maybe your stereo is just sucking all the power out of the engine! That's 3 of us pointing toward timing, maybe get a light on it and start there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 11:53am
Ha, I was pointing at Eddie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 8:03pm
What's the new style transfer tube mean?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 8:14pm
I still say carb..
former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Bri892001 Bri892001 wrote:

What's the new style transfer tube mean?


Thats the tube that goes between the primary and secondary bowl. The old ones had a crimp on each end to seat the o rings that sealed the tube to the bowl. The new ones are shorter and use a special seal like a top hat with a hole in the top
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 8:39pm
Thanks Gary.

Are the new tubes backwards compatible with the older carbs?   That tube couldn't be part of the problem then, could it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 8:55pm
Yes they are,you could not even get the old style for quite some time now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butter77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2014 at 10:22pm
I never did check the timing after replacing the EI module. Sounds like I need to hook the hose up to it tomorrow and check that. Anyone have a list of what they used to set up a fuel pressure gauge? I have the metal line still, so I'll need to fab up something and put an order in to Summit to get a couple things probably. From what I'm thinking, wouldn't it just be better to go ahead and put a new fuel pump on it then spend $20,$30, or $40 on making a fuel line to check the fuel pressure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-08-2014 at 10:00pm
If you never set the timing after the EI install the timing is going to be way off. The fuel pump has nothing to do with that so why replace it?
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-08-2014 at 10:13pm
Matt,
The fuel pump will have NTP threads in the body. Why go to Summit when a trip to the hardware store will work. A tee and a nipple will do the job. Yes, you will need to bend the hard line at the pump some to make it work but not by much. I agree with Eddie - why not test first before throwing money at something you THINK is wrong!


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Keep it original, Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 1:29am
Pete (or anyone), what do you like/use for thread sealant on fuel lines?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 6:40am
Brass to brass or brass to die cast being both soft materials really don't need a thread sealant however, I do use a small wrap of Teflon tape.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 11:24am
I've had good luck with brass to brass for water, but have had a few fuel drips so prefer to use sealant. I used some pipe sealant but a friend told me not to, that it wasn't suited for fuel and you don't want to risk any seeping past the threads when you tighten.

Tape sounds good to me, didn't realize it was OK for fuel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 7:25pm
I still have a few of the old tubes floating around Gary. It seems a little easier to get those in without boogering up the seal vs. the new hat style seals that will slide off to the side of the tube sometimes. that's just my .02.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butter77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 9:56pm
Geeze Louise...do I feel like a shmuck.....Hooked up the boat to the old recycle bin filled with water and started it up. Put the timing light to it and BAM.....I'm pretty sure you could hear the foul language out of my mouth for a mile away....While the light was blinking well short of the timing marks, I would guestimate about 40-45 BTDC. How was it even running there? Reset it to 10 degrees and locked down. Restarted several times to make sure it didnt' move. Got the engine to rev to 3200 (more like JUMP, never done that before so easily, even with no load) and saw about 26 on the timing. Is 16 degrees advance enough? Tried to do some quick looking on the phone but couldn't come up with an answer right away. Does this also explain cutting out after the secondaries opened up, since the timing was probably around 55-60 BTDC?

Side note on the new style transfer tube- I put the tube into the seals first, then put vasoline on the outer surfaces of the seals. Put one end into the primary bowl that was still on the carb, and the other end went in without a hitch when the secondary bowl was put on. That was LOADS easier then messing with those dang o-rings. I could never get them to seal right no matter what I tried.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 10:49pm
I was wrong again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 10:58pm
Eddie gets a gold star! Zach, CQ will give you a hand shandy.

Always check ignition before messing with the carb. Anytime you go deeper into the dizzy than the rotor, you MUST retime!

16 deg of advance is on the shy side, but not uncommon for a stock engine. Try 12-14 of initial and see how it likes it. If it starts nice and runs a little better, I'd leave it. 34-36 total would be ideal but you usually aren't giving up much performance so long as you're getting 30-32.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butter77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 11:07pm
Where would I expect to see the 30's on the timing? 3500? 4000? I wasn't much interested to go past 3200 on the bucket, but I guess that would be easier then at speed trying to watch the light.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2014 at 11:55pm
It should be all in by 3k but check that too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2014 at 1:04am
My original Prestolite similarly had 18 deg of advance, & it didn't get there until about 4K.

I had my upgrade dizzy tuned at a shop to give 23 deg advance, all in at 3K like Tim said.    It has not given me any trouble.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2014 at 11:39am
My NOS presto seems a little lazy on the all in rpm. I think if I remember it's around 3800. My boat is set at 32 total. With more initial they start a little easier and don't feel as lazy going into gear at idle.

That's all Eddie, I just agreed after the fact ha. I was going to play around 32 and 36 total but my timing light took a *************** at the end of the season last year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butter77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-12-2014 at 9:25pm
UPDATE: Well that helped! Above 3000 it runs like a fat kid chasing a cupcake (I can say that because most of the time I'm the fat kid). Below 3000 it didn't want to run hardly at all. I adjusted the accelerator pump and idle mixture screws to get that all sorted out and the timing set at 14 degree initial. By the end of the day it was running as well as ever. Then trouble....Running around 3500 back to the dock for about a minute when it just cut out. No trying to save it, the thing just died. Turned everything off for about 10 seconds, and then took a good solid 15 seconds of turning over and pumping the throttle to get it going. Got back up to 3000 to get back to the dock and cut out 10 seconds later. Did this 2 more times. It would idle fine at the dock, and started back up just fine to put on the trailer. I was thinking we ran out of fuel, but still had 10-11 gallons in the tank. I'll check the pickup, anti siphon, and fuel filter tomorrow to see if anything was picked up.
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