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starting a 92 SN without the Invertaflo muffler

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malcolm2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: starting a 92 SN without the Invertaflo muffler
    Posted: April-23-2014 at 8:55pm
I have finished the re-construction of my fiberglass muffler. Now I need to move on to the cause of the huge backfire explosion. I am going to say it is the carb.

Months ago, I was winterizing and tried to start the boat. It would not start and I checked for fuel.... saw none entering the carb. I felt around the carb and hit one of the jet pumps (not sure of the true name). But that caused fuel to jet into the carb.

Tried the starter again and it fired up. But did not run long. So I hit the "jet pump" again. Hit the key and only got a little turnover, more jet pump, key again and BAM!

So the question is, I want to troubleshoot, do not want to have another BAM, so I want to do it with the re-glassed muffler off.

Any help with that? good idea, bad idea?

I was considering just getting a new carb..... Thoughts on that?

Am I heading in the right direction, could it be something else?

Thanks,

Clark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 1:16pm
The "jet pump" you're talking about is most likely the accelerator pump.

I would guess that a bunch of raw unburned fuel made it's way into the exhaust.

Could be that the engine was flooded? I'm not sure why it wouldn't have started to get to the point of being flooded.

What ignition system do you have?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 1:56pm
As far as I know everything is stock. There are some coil packs at the rear leading to the plugs and a 6" diameter plastic cap over what looks to be a good place for the distributor in the front.

I took some pictures of the Carb the other day trying to figure out what to buy... what model Holley is this?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 2:06pm
Sounds like you have the Protec Ignition, which is somewhat infamous. A lot of guys wind up changing that out at some point to a traditional distributor. There is a kit sold for that purpose, which comes with all the necessary wiring etc.

Before we get to that though, is your choke wide open like that all the time, or did you have the key on form some time before the pic was taken?

If the choke plate never closes up, that could be part of why you're getting a hard cold start. Although, some guys here run with the choke totally removed and say they never have a problem...

That carb is a Holley 4160, the OEM carb. It's a very expensive part to just throw at the boat though. You want to confirm you're getting good spark from your Protec and confirm your choke plate is closing before your replace that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 4:07pm
Our '92 will throw the occasional backfire sometimes when she's first started up from cold. I think it's a choke issue that I am currently fixing. I'd check to make sure your choke is working properly on cold start-ups. If that's fine, check the ignition. Those Protecs are known for failing. The retrofit will set you back about $500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Bri892001 Bri892001 wrote:


Before we get to that though, is your choke wide open like that all the time, or did you have the key on form some time before the pic was taken?

That carb is a Holley 4160, the OEM carb. It's a very expensive part to just throw at the boat though. You want to confirm you're getting good spark from your Protec and confirm your choke plate is closing before your replace that.


Boat and key have been turn off since winterizing in October. I have never watched the choke, so that is something to check.

Lots to check, so the main question is, can I do this with the bench out, center board out and muffler (newly repaired) out? If I need to I figured I could run a make-shift pipe of some sort.

If and when it starts easily, I am not going to run it long. I will assume it is fixed and put it back together.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 5:30pm
Certainly you don't need the rear bench or the centerboard for it to run. Might as well get the engine cover out of the way too.

If you are supplying water to the motor while you run it (and you should for the sake of your impeller) just know that water is going to be coming out of the exhaust. So yeah, you just need to rig something to collect that water, which could potentially be a little rusty at first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 6:27pm
So the electric choke should close when the key is turned on? If not, I need to investigate the choke operation further. I see the wires in the picture, looks like the PO did something to the connection.

But I do remember NOT seeing fuel before the back-fire blew my muffler. So I felt like I should start there (with fuel). I suppose I can rule out spark easy enough. Pull a few plugs and ground them. Even if the choke is not working, I get no squirt in the carb.

Clark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 6:39pm
No the choke opens when the key is on. If you were to go look at it now the plate would be closed with about a 1/8" gap on the top edge. If your key in that picture was off and the engine not run for awhile you choke is not working correctly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by malcolm2 malcolm2 wrote:

So the electric choke should close when the key is turned on? If not, I need to investigate the choke operation further. I see the wires in the picture, looks like the PO did something to the connection.


No, the choke should be closed when cold and the key off. It should have about a 1/16'-1/8" gap at that point. As soon as you turn the key on the choke should slowly start to open. It will take about a minute or so to fully open up.
The carb pic you posted you said the boat has not run or the key been turned on since it was winterized. If that's the case, Brian is right and something is definitely wrong with the choke. It should be closed. If you were trying to start it cold and the choke was open like that, you would have had a really hard time keeping it running until it got warmed up. I'm guessing you flooded it trying to keep it running and then you got the BAM.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 7:50pm
Gary, Brian, and Eddie save the day again!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smithfamily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-24-2014 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by backfoot100 backfoot100 wrote:

Originally posted by malcolm2 malcolm2 wrote:

So the electric choke should close when the key is turned on? If not, I need to investigate the choke operation further. I see the wires in the picture, looks like the PO did something to the connection.


No, the choke should be closed when cold and the key off. It should have about a 1/16'-1/8" gap at that point. As soon as you turn the key on the choke should slowly start to open. It will take about a minute or so to fully open up.
The carb pic you posted you said the boat has not run or the key been turned on since it was winterized. If that's the case, Brian is right and something is definitely wrong with the choke. It should be closed. If you were trying to start it cold and the choke was open like that, you would have had a really hard time keeping it running until it got warmed up. I'm guessing you flooded it trying to keep it running and then you got the BAM.



Sounds right on.
I would rebuild the carb, as that will be much less than replacement. I, too have the 92, and lost the pro-tec during my engine rebuild, and went to the conversion, as Jpass says, $500. I have an Edelbrock carb, with a Holley back up, waiting for a rebuild. ($18 on sale Rock auto) Knock on wood, the Edelbrock has been doing the job!
Whatever the choice, keep in mind if she aint running and the carb is pumping fuel some where, while trying to start, eventually you will have a problem!! BOOM! Good Luck!!
Js
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-25-2014 at 11:41am
I hope to drag the boat home this weekend and start investigating. Carb rebuild was an option too. Once I get into it, I'm sure I'll have some Pro-Tec questions, but for now, I know I need to go thru the std engine TS of fuel and spark, let's see where it takes me.

Thanks to all.

Clark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2014 at 9:08pm
I have finally gotten the boat in the driveway. I checked the resistance in the plug wires and they range on the pass. (left) side from 8 to 12.5. On the drivers side i get 11 to 13. Nothing seems out of the ordinary, correct?

On the choke, I get about 10 volts with the key on. I hear what I assume is the choke clicking but ZERO movement. Any tricks to taking that apart and seeing what is going on? Or just get a new one?

3rdly, I do see fuel pumping in the carb. I am now moving on to check for spark at each plug.

But crank attempts get ZERO fire. The starter cranks great, looks like fuel is going in the carb, even if I manually close the choke, I get no attempt to fire.

How do I TS the Pro-tec?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2014 at 10:37pm
youtube video... success

I tested the plug wires as stated, tried to test spark and my test light was bad.... so I made a cocktail, posted above then went and tried again and it started.

Hot damn, now I need to install the muffler.

Anyway, what are the symptoms of a bad Pro-tec? I read a few that were basically over heating while running. This one is just coming out of winterization, so it just would not fire.

It is not running smoothly, but I'll work on that later.

Help if you can. Video comments welcome.... volume DOWN warning.

Clark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kapla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2014 at 6:44pm
Are you running that engine dry?
better clamp that hose!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2014 at 9:41pm
Everyone must be boating?

I was really hoping to get some advice on how to determine if the coil packs are bad or going bad.

symptoms or test methods?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kapla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2014 at 9:55pm
In my case it performed ok but would not get past 4200 rpm...after replaced it raised my rpm to 4900.
other than that it ran fine.
Other sympthoms are eventual missfires. Hard start when hot.. white goo at the coil pack. Or just like to quit working...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2014 at 10:51pm
How old is the gas in there? The way it would sputter here and there, I was wondering if it had some bad gas. Of course, that could just be running cold without the choke too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malcolm2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-10-2014 at 8:16pm
Turns out I had one plug wire not connected. I found it today when I re mounted the muffler. The gas tank is full. I filled it for winterization. If it doesn't rain I'll try her in the lake.

EDIT: The answer is: YES: you can run without a muffler. I did capture the water and run it into the hull and some out the exhaust. I did not run it long, but wanted to avoid another huge backfire and blow my new muffler. It worked.

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