Replacing heads. Gasket advice needed |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21133 |
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Posted: December-03-2014 at 7:22am |
Most likely not the same exhaust manifold bolts. In addition to being Allen heads for clearance, they're also longer since we have thick cast iron exhaust manifolds. Get the PCM ones or source yourself the same length black oxide bolts from McMaster or the hardware store.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3605 |
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Most of the exhaust bolts I have seen use an Allen head to gain extra clearance. There is very little room for a bolt on the marine exhaust headers. I have had two 351W's, a 1978 and a 1995, they both seem to use the same type Allen head bolt, sorry I don't know the size.
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Well, we ordered the gaskets. Went with Fel-Pro Marine gaskets, as these weren't overly expensive. Can't go wrong with these i guess.
Got almost all the parts we need for our head swap! Getting ready to order the exhaust bolts. Could anyone confirm these are the same length as the automotive ones? Can't really imagine them being any different, but you never know. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Other than the word "marine" commanding more $$$. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I ran my automotive head gaskets for 20 years. When I changed my heads to p's I used PCM head gaskets,that are about 31 bucks each,only because I was sourcing parts before I did the job and had no idea how the old ones held up.If you look at Summit,marine head gaskets are actually cheaper than automotive. The rest of the gaskets other than the exhausts I cannot imagine being any different than automotive ones
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Thanks so much for the help. Sounds like the marine gaskets will be the better choice. Might cost a little bit more though, but we'll go with these.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3605 |
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I did not see a part number listed with the kit you purchased so it is hard to confirm the correct application. The Head Gaskets if they are Fel-Pro will have a part number stamped into the gasket. 8548PT is the most common, 9333PT is a heavy duty version and would work better at not much higher cost. A Marine gasket is best in a boat. The Marine gasket has a stainless steel main gasket body and the fire rings are also made of stainless and this helps resist detonation better than an automotive gasket. In detonation the stainless fire ring will last three times longer than a stock gasket. Without antifreeze in a system gaskets are exposed to rust. The marine will last longer.
If your tune up is good and gas quality is good the automotive gasket will last several years before it rusts out. Just don't let it detonate. The Heavy Duty gasket 9333PT gives you the heavy duty fire ring made of stainless but the gasket body is mild steel rather than stainless. It is a very good upgrade of automotive for not much money. The Marine gasket will cost more than double the automotive gasket. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Some of those you won't use you might be able to save some money by ordering them separate from Summit Racing or at least check out their prices. Sure is easier when you live where they made them all!
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malibud
Gold Member Joined: July-08-2009 Location: north carolina Status: Offline Points: 612 |
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I pretty sure it would fit. They do make a marine version I think I got mine from summit. not sure the differences
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Cool, thanks. Will only be used in fresh water. So that means the above gasket set would fit, correct?
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I have used automotive head gaskets before with no problems in freshwater but if in salt you might want to check with felpro and see what they say
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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we have received our new heads and whilst in the US we want to get the right gasket set ordered. We think this is correct
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301232661900?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Is it the right one and if not which should we order and are there any gaskets which are needed but are not in the kit. The heads we have are gt40P heads. Thanks in advance for any help you can give us. |
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Thanks for the tip!
Was already planning on buying a couple of flacons ZDDP additive. |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3336 |
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With higher spring rates, be extra certain your oil has sufficient zddp
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Just to keep you guys updated;
We've just bought remanufactured heads from Tri-State Cyl Heads. Cut for 1.94 intake and 1.54 exhaust valves and upgraded springs. The latter we won't necessarily need, because we're not upgrading our cams, but it's a plus anyway. Thanks for all your input, much appreciated! |
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uk1979
Platinum Member Joined: June-13-2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1412 |
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We have these on UK Ebay Chinese copy of US heads... may be worth a look and research on the net... these look like the newer type and have better reviews.... shipping will be much cheaper and no Vat on shipping cost and heads ...
351w heads |
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Lets have a go
56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Yeah, also been thinking about that. Getting the heads off and then having them welded. That might be the other way to go instead of new heads. But since I've been doing the work by that point already of taking the heads off and having to buy all new gaskets and bolts, etc I might as well change the heads for a new set as well. That'll cost me like 400 bucks extra by that time (considering the welding cost over here), but then I'll have perfectly new GT40P heads, which will make selling the boat easier as opposed to welded heads as well (plan on keeping the boat for just a couple of years from now). And then there's the cost for resurfacing the heads also before I put the welded ones back on. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate your input a lot and don't mean to neglect your help! I'm pretty sure welding can be done and it'll give me no problems. But considering the work that has to be done, I just feel better slapping new heads on for the 400 bucks extra it'll run me for this winter.
CBR1000dude; I tried JB Weld already as a temporary solution, but the heat is too much. It gets soft again and it doesn't stop the water anymore from leaking out by that time. |
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800wildcat
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2010 Location: Ripon, WI Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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Find the ECU harness connector and disconnect it. And I still don't think it's difficult to weld, just very time consuming. But it's your choice. I don't mean in the "whatever" sense, but I don't want to talk you into it against your will. For me, if the objections can be logically answered so the risk is minimal, then I don't have concerns about giving it a shot. After all, the worst case scenario that I can think of as long as electricals are disconnected is the welding if done incorrectly can ruin the heads - and my understanding is they're already ruined. Another thing to check out is if you have concerns about welding with the method I explained above and you're going to pull the heads anyway, see if you can find a welder who has the proper equipment to weld cast iron. (Someone who can preheat it properly.) There's a chance you may find one who is enough cheaper than buying a used set that it may be the best choice. But when I was younger I would likely have used the cracks as a "good" excuse to get some really good performing aluminum heads. Unfortunately, my wallet has never been up to the task of satisfying the power junkie that I truly am at heart....
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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Second on the Clearwater Cylinder Head. Our long time local Correct Craft dealership only uses them.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Some here has bought heads from Clearwater Cylinder Heads,I got mine from Tri-State Cylinder Heads
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Formula50
Newbie Joined: January-17-2014 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Thanks for your input guys, really appreciate it!
Guess only thing to do now is find a shop that has heads laying around ready to ship. The two I have emailed to haven't replied yet, which is frustrating. As far as the welding goes; I've been thinking about that as well. It'd be cheap and easy. But I have 2 concerns… First thing is that iron is (as you said) very, very hard to weld. The other is that there isn't really a very good place to ground the welder. It's a full polyester boat and frying the ECU would mean disastrous problems and that would cost a whole lot more than just 2 heads. Don't want to take that risk to be honest. Plus it's a good feeling having new heads on the boat without having to check for leaks. Again, thanks for all the input so far! More opinions or shop-addresses are always welcome of course. Malibud; I'll drop you a PM! Mountain Man; I'll send these guys an e-mail too, thanks. |
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800wildcat
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2010 Location: Ripon, WI Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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I know that's the officially correct way to do it (preheating) and the way my Dad (certified welding inspecter for the state of OH before retiring) would say to do it. But I watched a guy do it who just used a couple of towels with a bucket of water. He soaked the towels and wrung them out enough to not be dripping. He then made a short welding pass 90 degrees to the crack like a stitch. He would lay another one next to it and so work his way down the crack. The trick was only making a couple of passes at a time not letting the casting get very hot and laying the wet towels on it to slowly cool the iron back down. He would even start with the towels a little distance from the crack at first and then move them in. Took a lot of patience and waiting to make sure the iron did not get too hot and rewetting the towels. But I can verify it was a successful method; it didn't crack next to the weld as would likely happen if it was welded at a normal speed and direction without preheating. He had repaired many cracks using that method and was always successful with it. He said the critical element is patience letting it cool down and not making "just one more pass" and getting it too hot. So if I were to do it today, that's the method I would use. So for me it isn't that difficult, just takes some time and patience. The old AC-DC welder can get it done.
Also, this was long enough ago that eBay didn't exist so getting a used exhaust manifold and a block wasn't nearly as easy to locate as today. So his fee was a really good deal and far, far cheaper than a new replacement. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Not quite that easy. Heads are cast they need to be baked and then welded with a nickel rod. Don't think they make nickel wire for a mig yet. |
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800wildcat
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2010 Location: Ripon, WI Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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Is getting someone to weld it all that expensive? Over 25 years ago, I had a block and exhaust manifold welded (arc, not JB...)and, guess what, it hasn't leaked since.
Things have changed over the years, now, even though I'm only a hobby welder, I'd pull out the Lincoln and do it myself. It's not that difficult. |
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OverMyHead
Grand Poobah Joined: March-14-2008 Location: MN Status: Offline Points: 4861 |
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JB weld is a very acceptable repair.........on a boat you are going to give to your kids. It's payback for the teenage years. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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kapla
Grand Poobah Joined: March-27-2008 Location: BA, Argentina Status: Offline Points: 6148 |
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will you carry them back in your lugagge? ask the airline about extra weight as they are about 40lb each (17kg)..
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<a href="">1992 ski nautique
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cbr1000dude
Senior Member Joined: August-23-2011 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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I have some experience with 351 heads leaking/spraying water from cracks in the rear spark plug to freeze plug area. While searching for heads, a tech told me to first try cleaning/grinding out the cracks(to clean bare metal), and using a 2 part epoxy like JB Weld,(let dry 24 hours) as this is common, and an acceptable fix. It's just the water jacket that cracks, no gas pressure or oil pressure involved. It sounded pretty lame to me at first, until I thought, hey, a rubber hose or gasket on the thermostat housing has the same water pressure and heat to withhold. This was 3 years ago, and hasn't leaked since. This was on my 87 SN I gave to my daughter.
You may want new heads anyway, but fix the old ones and keep for spares or a buddy later, especially since they are so hard to come by where you are. |
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Mountain Man
Senior Member Joined: May-09-2014 Location: Brevard, NC Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Suggest you contact Dover Cylinder Head in Greenville, SC. They are one of the leading Cylinder Head Shops in the United States. Telephone number:
864-294-7741. They respond to emails "chrisd@doverheads.com" . They just reconditioned a set of GT-40 Heads for me and charged about $400. They also sell new and used reconditioned cylinder heads. Give some thought to the shipping costs. I lived in Holland for a while, worked in Vlaardingen and did some classwork and teaching in Scheveningen, have first hand experience in the expense of shipping between the US and Holland. Good Luck and Enjoy Your Visit! |
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800wildcat
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2010 Location: Ripon, WI Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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An additional plus with aluminum heads is whatever the weight reduction is can then be added to your load carrying capacity.
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malibud
Gold Member Joined: July-08-2009 Location: north carolina Status: Offline Points: 612 |
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Where are you going in the US ? I have a set of GT heads I pulled from a nautique with 600 hrs. But if you are going that far I can have a machine shop magna flux and rebuild I should be in the 500 range if you come close to North Carolina ..
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