Living in the country

turningpoint84 wrote: why in thr world would i drive 500 miles to pay to stay in a hotel on a lake in WI? when my very own free lake house is just 150miles up the road.

You bought out grandma?

8122pbrainard wrote: turningpoint84 wrote: TO make matters worse, it's really really hard to go to GL when my own lake house is 150 miles away. why in thr world would i drive 500 miles to pay to stay in a hotel on a lake in WI? when my very own free lake house is just 150miles up the road. I'm sorry to hear you don't want to meet any of the CCfan group. Even worse, you drive right past within minutes of GL on your way to MW!! BTW, my Wisconsin 2nd home is less than 150 miles away and I've made it to GL!

Yes and you also live in IL, not OH and have more time away from work.

I'll be there someday Pete.

Gary S wrote: Pete like our banned brother Chris are really great people when in person,something just does not translate thru the Internet. Peter(tp) you have no excuse,you should really attend GL to meet some of the group------

I definitely will someday, biggest issue currently is I have 9 days of vacation and a wife who is 5 months preggers. So i wont even make it to my lake house this summer.

TO make matters worse, it's really really hard to go to GL when my own lake house is 150 miles away. I know it would be a lot of fun, but why in thr world would i drive 500 miles to pay to stay in a hotel on a lake in WI? when my very own free lake house is just 150miles up the road.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, going to my own lake house is just a luxury right now, going to GL would mean i'm rretired with too much free time.

It's going to be one of those see you guys in 25 years haha. Now if there ever was something like this in IN or OH, i'd definitely try to make it.

And I'm sure Old Peter and I would hit it off pretty well.

Pete like our banned brother Chris are really great people when in person,something just does not translate thru the Internet. Peter(tp) you have no excuse,you should really attend GL to meet some of the group------

Old Peter, likes to continue to ask the annoying questions and poke, it's probably why he's never gained the success in his career he believe's he deserved, while being probably one of the smartest people at his company. He never learned to be a people person. It's a shame, all that talent, but no people skills.[/QUOTE]

That is not really even worth a response but here goes .
      Pete is as all of us are different from each other but he is on my top 5 of people on here i want to meet and learn something from .

turningpoint84 wrote: Design Engineer

Then it will be easy for you to answer my question.

8122pbrainard wrote: Please justify with all costs with initial purchase and install, heat losses on tank type and energy costs. Don't forget that during heating season, heat loss is at a minimum. Also factor in the descaling maintenance. peter1234 wrote: everything depends on temp of your ground water or street water temps before you can think about the true gal per min it will give you and the actual operating efficiency. This is very true especially since I seem to remember Andy will be on well water. Ether way, well or city, the delta T MUST be factored in. The manufacturers specs are BEST CASE scenario!!

turningpoint84 wrote: I've serviced and repaired a lot of stuff

But maybe Andy isn't! As Peter has mentioned, you may be steering him in the wrong direction?

peter1234 wrote: I am sure you are right about descaling I think you may have misinterpreted my above comment about installing and servicing/repairing the gas segment of any appliance if you are not a professional. I am sure you are intelligent enough to grant me that . I would hope that any recommendations you have for him and his equipment are also based on facts.   you wouldnt want to make an uneducated guess outside of your profession and steer him in a wrong direction i am sure.   what is it that you do for a living?

Design Engineer, but i'm thinking about becoming a building engineer, where i'd oversee these installations and sign off on this exact subject.

Yes all correct, but Rheem is a national brand and parts are available to anyone that can use the internet.

Also yes i would service and do service my tankless heater. Repair it?, well that depends on the issue.

I've serviced and repaired a lot of stuff.

8122pbrainard wrote: peter1234 wrote: in case you have a break down and the guy you call either doesnt have them (likely) or he cant get them quick enough . Peter, Peter likes cold showers.

NO i enjoy hot showers, in the dead of winter too believe it or not.


He could look into all the bol*************** or at the end of the day just buy the a 199K btu tankless and not worry about the $200 cost difference, also I'd assume install cost difference between a tank-less unit and a tanked unit is almost negligible into a new home.

And yes obviously he should buy that has common parts in his region.

ALso any *************** with half a brain should be able to descale their tankless water heater.

everything depends on temp of your ground water or street water temps before you can think about the true gal per min it will give you and the actual operating efficiency. it would as i have said above probably be my first choice for you if you are not putting in forced hot water heat or hydro air type heating system. as far as brands go please dont just buy a brand that someone in new england (me) says to buy buy one that is common in your own area when you do buy one ask your plumber to supply you with some of the typical parts it might need in the next 4 yrs and have them on hand in case you have a break down and the guy you call either doesnt have them (likely) or he cant get them quick enough .

Okie Boarder wrote: At this point it is up to 3, but our youngest is starting to transition to the idea of taking a shower in the morning, as well. It could be up to 4.

Go tankless, i wouldn't even look into anything else.

It's on demand hot water, so it's amazing you're not spending all this money on keeping water hot that you'll only need for 1 hr a day.


Just buy a 8.4-9.1 gpm unit, I love my rheem eco sense 199K btu.

The difference in price will pay for itself overtime.

Okie Boarder wrote: One thing he told us was he installed a system in one of his neighbors houses with two 20 gallon tanks. They have 5 kids and obviously put a high demand on hot water. With this recirculating system he is talking about and the two tanks, they don't have a problem with running out of hot water. Has that been your experience?

How many people do you think will showering within a 1hr span?

A 40 gal is more then enough, you could also turn it up really high in the winter months.

I used to have a 40 gal, and had 2 friends living with me, friend one would shower for 20 mins in the morning, then i'd shower for about 10 and it would almost be out of hot water..it would be luke warm towards the end.

You should be fine with just a 40 especially if you're circulating.

Andy,
I have a 40 here and yes, I have run out but, that's after my daughter takes one of her epic showers, the washer is running and then I shower. Towards the end, the water starts to cool down. Up north, I have an indirect from the boiler for the in floor and have never had an issue with it.

Okie Boarder wrote: I guess my question was whether anyone has ever done the closed loop or return line type layout with a tanked unit.

They work great. I have one system pumped and the other due to vertical height (2 stories) is static and works via convection. If you insulate the piping, you will get more capacity out of whatever size of HWT you install. You don't need to waste all the hot water out of the tank to get to the point of use.

Andy,
I think Peter (TP) should go and work for your contractor. Think of all the money he could save the contractors customers!!!! We tried to tell him the install would cost some $$$ but he sure wouldn't listen!!

It sounds like Craig is right. it sounds like a small tank with recirc pump.. only value to that is for a long distance from the water heater.. a 40 gal chimney vented water heater would be a bare minimum for 3 people.   most tankless 200 thousand btu input units will depending on incoming water temp will give you an honest 7.5 to 9 gal per min .. if you arent doing a forced hot water heating that would give you the option of indirect water heating then it is probably your best option. point of use units wont give you more than enough for a bathroom sink and 50 gallon or larger natural vent units might give you enough but they are the least efficient i would say

So, we sat down with the contractor last night to finalize and approve plans and make any last minute changes for his bid. During that conversation, we talked about several thoughts on options. Regarding the water heater situation, we spoke in more detail of costs and options. He said that with our 4 bathroom set up and hot water needs, the tankless configuration costs about $1100 in equipment and around $5-6k in additional electrical and plumbing costs. We discussed another alternative to the typical 40 gallon water heater in most houses and that is a smaller tank configured with a recirculator. Have any of you had much experience with this? He's installed them in several houses and said he plans to do the same in his own house whenever his standard water heater decides to go out.