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Ignition Issue

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bhlaban View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhlaban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ignition Issue
    Posted: May-15-2006 at 1:32pm
I have a 1988 Ski Nautique 2001 (CTC24093E888) with a Ford 351 (PRD-WR-R10) and a Presolite distributor (E5JL-12100-DA) that has been converted using a breakless ignition module (unknown - installed by previous owner).

PROBLEM

Slight engine miss - Occurs sporatically (every 5 - 20 seconds or so) at all RPMs.

DIAGNOSTICS

Compression Cylinder 1 - 112 psi
Compression Cylinder 2 - 109 psi
Compression Cylinder 3 - 114 psi
Compression Cylinder 4 - 116 psi
Compression Cylinder 5 - 114 psi
Compression Cylinder 6 - 116 psi
Compression Cylinder 7 - 112 psi
Compression Cylinder 8 - 112 psi

Timing @ 600 RPM - 12 degrees BTDC
Timing @ 1000 RPM - 12 degrees BTDC
Timing @ 1500 RPM - 16 degrees BTDC
Timing @ 2000 RPM - 22 degrees BTDC
Timing @ 2500 RPM - 22 degrees BTDC
Timing @ 3000 RPM - 22 degrees BTDC

New Champion RV15YC4 plugs (.035 gap)

Checked spark on each plug wire with timing light and noticed light misses sporatically on all wires (no predictable pattern).

Inspected weights and springs in distributor for defects and ensured they were not gummed/stuck. Weights move with finger pressure, but not sure how much movement is expected.

Any suggestions?



Ben Hlaban
1988 Ski Nautique 2001
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john33617 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john33617 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2006 at 2:04pm
try 6 btdc , unhook tach wire from coil , autolite 25's , new cap , new coil , new ballast , new alternator , check magnets on rotor , check air gap of rotor and pickup
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2006 at 4:37pm
Sounds like you have a distributor problem. You should be seeing roughly 24 degrees total advance (on top of your base timing) at 3000 rpm. I am no expert, but if youre only getting 10 degrees of total advance, I would say something is wrong with your weights and springs.

Sporatic missing is strange, but sounds like it could be a distributor issue as well. Inspect the cap and rotor. Usually when an electronic ignition module dies, it does so instantly without warning.

Im sure one of our experts will chime in shortly with their diagnosis!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 10:03am
I suppose your coil and/or spark plug wires could be breaking down. Also make sure all electrical, ignition related, wires have clean and tight connections. Especially the grounds. Check the condition of the wire connections at the ignition switch.

Sporadic missing is a good sign of poor connections being affected by vibration which causes sporadic loose of integrity. Well, poorly said, but I hope you get the idea. It could also be an internal break within a wire.
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79nautique View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 10:18am
get rid of the champion plugs and ballast resistor if it already has not been by-passed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 10:29am
79 is right on with the champion plugs...ugh.

And those advance numbers don't look right.
Advance should range 10-34 degrees, +/- .
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhlaban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 1:51pm
I'm thinking of replacing my existing distributor with an electronic ignition distributor - Does anyone have any recommendations?
Ben Hlaban
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 2:57pm
Depends how much you want to spend. If you want the best, take a look at the marine DUI from PerformanceDistributors.com.

I got an additional 200 RPM from the DUI after replacing my stock Prestolite with EI conversion and setting my base timing to ~14 degrees.

Performance Distributors builds a great product that is custom tuned to your motor. You will need to tell them some info about your boat, including weight, heads, cam, and octane of fuel. They will set up a custom advance curve for you, which can be changed by sending the unit back to them (if you ever add some serious upgrades to the motor). Other benefits include a hotter burn (that allows you to open up your spark plug gaps to ~.055"), a more consistent advance curve, and the incorporation of the coil into the distributor. This cleans up the wiring.

Do a search on this site and you will find some good info, there are several of us who have these DUI's.

The one thing you need to note is that you will need to reuse your current distributor gear since your motor is reverse rotation. Klinger_2003 did this modification to his gear to make it work, which you can read about in this thread.

The cost of the DUI is ~$400 with shipping, by the way. The lead time is 2-4 weeks I would guess- mine took about 2.

I recommend going that route if you are going to upgrade your distributor at all. If you dont want to spend that much or wait that long, the best route is to find a new stock replacement distributor and put a Prestolite EI conversion kit in it for another $100.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 3:36pm
you can look at mallory units as well

YLM-554-CV or a YLU-554-CV, you don't have to worry about the gears with these, the YLM is the cheaper of the two and uses a magetic pick-up, the YLU is what I use and it has an optical pick-up. If your motor is stock then you really don't have to worry about the advance curve, now if it's built up a little then you will want to get a curve kit and fine tune the dist it's pretty easy to do your just swapping springs out for springs with a different spring rate and you'll get the same performance as you will with the DUI unit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 4:42pm
The Mallory units look nice and are an easy drop in replacement. However, my opinion is that if youre going to consider the Unilite @ $310+, youre probably better off going with a DUI since the performance will certainly be no worse, plus it eliminates the seperate coil and cleans up the wiring on the motor.

You do have to get new sparkplug wires with HEI terminals to run the DUI- not sure what you need for the Mallory's.

The hole that needs to be drilled in your old gear to reuse it on the DUI should only cost $10 at a machine shop.

Just my $.02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhlaban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 7:58pm
79 - I'm leaning toward the mallory distributor. What is the difference between the magnetic and optical versions? Performance? Maintenance? MTBF? You also mention no need to change gears with the mallory distributors, my engine is the right hand rotation model PRD-WR-R10 (firing order 18456273) - Just want to verify that I will not need to mess with the gears on the mallory units...

Thanks,
Ben
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2006 at 8:47pm
Im not an expert on the Mallory's, though I did look into them when I upgraded my distributor. Summit lists the YLU-554-DV as the proper distributor for a reverse rotation 351w. Summit doesnt list a magnetic version for the reverse rotation, though the only real difference should be the gear.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SS-201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2006 at 5:57am
Older optical units were not very stable such as mallory optical. However they make a new unit that is very reliable for marine use. Contrary to what you do NEVER take the ballaast resistor off. Read all instruction carefully it is very exlpicit about this misnomer. Now the exception to the rule of ballast resistors, Crane and others with the matched coil for that unit can be however they still reccomend not to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2006 at 9:05am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

YLU-554-DV as the proper distributor for a reverse rotation 351w.


WRONG, the DV version is the standard rotation and what you don't want. Like I said earlier I have the YLU-554-CV on my reverse rotation engine.

Has far as the Mallory vs. DUI your going to send $150-200 more for the DUI unit once the gear is drilled and you buy new wires. They are both going to perform equally and both are easy to wire up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote surroundsound64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2006 at 1:55pm
I'd also agree on the timeing being off.

I think it should be closer to 4-6 BTC at 600 rpm.

Although I wouldn't rule out the electronic ignition system. I installed one on my boat and it did the same thing. I put the points back in and it didn't. Make sure the ballast resistor is bypassed (the white ceramic thingie with 2 terminals on it at the back of your engine.)

I want to put a new electronic distributor on mine, but I don't wanna spend $400 right now.

It can't hurt to change those plugs too.
1981 Ski Nautique
2000 SAN



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2006 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by 79nautique 79nautique wrote:

Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

YLU-554-DV as the proper distributor for a reverse rotation 351w.


WRONG, the DV version is the standard rotation and what you don't want. Like I said earlier I have the YLU-554-CV on my reverse rotation engine.

Has far as the Mallory vs. DUI your going to send $150-200 more for the DUI unit once the gear is drilled and you buy new wires. They are both going to perform equally and both are easy to wire up.


I said I wasnt an expert on the Mallory's, but Summit clearly lists the DV as the distributor for a reverse rotation 351w. Whether it is incorrect or not, I dont know- I was simply pointing it out.

I disagree that the performance would be the same on the 2 distributors. The DUI has proven dyno results, and it should offer increased performance on a tuned motor. On a stock motor, I agree that there wouldnt be a noticable difference between the 2. There probably wouldnt be a tremendous performance difference between the full upgrade and a simple EI kit either though.

As far as cost goes, the DUI is only $65 more than the Unilite, and it incorporates the coil. The reuse of the gear on a RR motor may not require machining, but if it does that is only an additional $10.

I consider spark plug wires a maintainance item, so that cost is a moot point, IMHO.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhlaban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2006 at 8:22pm
Why would someone choose the optical (YLU-554-CV) over the magnetic (YLM-554-CV)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SS-201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2006 at 5:27am
Beats me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2006 at 9:16am
What travels faster, light or a magnetic field?

With the optical pickup the triggering is quicker and more consistant compared to a magnetic version. An additional advantage of an optical system is you can also design the vane in such a way that you can send a signal to an ECM so it knows exactly which cylinder is firing as will has where the rotor is inbetween firings to adjust timing electronicly, as in no mechanical advance. Granted this is not how the mallory's are used or designed.

With a magnetic pick-up there is a slight rise time before the field energizes and induction takes place across the poles of the star wheel.


Tim, I enterput summit's listing differently, it only states that the helix of the gear is reverse with CCW rotation, not that it is for a reverse rotation engine, If you look into mallory's catolog I belive is a little clearer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bhlaban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2006 at 9:18am
Thanks for your help! I'm going to buy the optical unit (YLU-554-CV) - I'll let you know how it goes...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SS-201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2006 at 2:48pm
I happen to have a new Mallory unilite distrubutor on one of my boats works fine. It is a carbon copy of the Crane optical unit All 351 Windsor distrubutor turn CC rotation, regardless of the engine rotation, the gear is different cut as so is the cam to reverse rotate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2006 at 4:39pm
isn't Crane, Mallory and Accel all part of the same company?   Mr. gasket owns them all and a hlf dozen more?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SS-201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-19-2006 at 5:48am
As far as I know no, however there is something going on as we speak even the employed don't know. My best friend is a drag race specialst for Crane.
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