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95 SN Running Great, now won't start

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SteveHookEm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Steve,
Did you carefully read Gary's comment? Did you even bother to use the link I provided regarding heads that members here have used?
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Oh yea I'd believe someone trying to sell me something over numerous others who actually have experience and have no skin in the game bet they cannot tell you what the difference actually is---


I've read everything carefully. I looked at all the links and have no idea what I'm looking at. I am not a mechanic and have to depend on others for the work. Saying to me, "just take it all apart yourself to save money" isn't going to happen. I don't have the knowledge or tools to do it. So I have to go to a shop and hope that they are not screwing me over. This particular shop has been in business a very long time and is the place where most dealers send the transmissions and engines to be rebuilt or machined. They come highly recommended and are well regarded. I may have misunderstood what he said about auto vs marine. All I can do is post here and try to learn. I appreciate all the help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:49pm
I checked they site and they do not list gt40s or gt40ps - the castings they list for 5.8 liter fords are E5TE-E7TE which are earlier designs which will be 40 plus hp lower and may not play with your fuel injection setup well. I am not here to bad mouth the marina, there aren't many that would know that pcm used gt40 cylinder heads on HO engines. Ford marine engines are relatively rare to begin with, gt40 headed ones are only a small fraction of those.   I wouldn't expect any general marine engine builder to stock them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-13-2015 at 2:03pm
Just spoke to my service advisor. He said they will absolutely be using GT40 heads and brass plugs. I think that is what he meant by "marine vs auto" because when I asked he said "if you see steel plugs in a boat you know it's not done right, you have to use brass in boats"

He said Marshall Engines will have GT40p heads and they don't list them on the site. When he gets the casting number, that will be the heads he gets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-13-2015 at 3:44pm
If he pulls the casting numbers off yours he will be looking for GT40 heads. They are typically expensive, even as cores. You can use GT40p heads instead as many here are suggesting. They cost less, perform better, and are less prone to the cracks that your heads are suffering from. However they come drilled for 302 applications and need to be opened up to use the ½ head bolts in your 351w. This is the information unlikely to be known to your mechanic unless he hangs out on ccfan all the time.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 10:57am
@JoeinNY They pulled the heads. I have attached photos of the numbers he sent: GT, 5811, WC-P and 2. This shop has always just tried to get OEM back for repairs. They checked the usual sources and couldn't find any GT-40 heads other than from PCM. Those are $1929 EACH! haha We won't be doing that.

So I need to find the GT-40P heads myself. I don't want to make a mistake. If I order them, I need to make sure I'm getting the correct parts!

I don't know what I'm looking at from these websites. From this thread, I know that I need steel VS, brass plugs and bolt holes drilled to 1/2". Can someone point me to the items I need?

Steve



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:13am
Just spoke to Matt at Tri-State. They have what I need with performance valves, pre drilled, brass plugs for $299 each. Much better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:13am
That's kinda what we thought would happen... for the shop to put that back together exactly as it came would certainly cost more than the installation of a newer bobtail engine. Its not their fault it is just reality. If they are willing to let you supply the heads and still do then work then I would call up Clearwater cylinder head, tell them you want a set of gt40p heads with brass freeze plugs and 1/2 bolt holes for use on a 351w marine engine. They should be able to take care of you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:15am
If you go with tristate be sure they know that you are using a flat tappet stock cam and make sure they provide springs that will work in that application.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:24am
Well, my mechanic won't do it. He said they won't install customer supplied parts and that they have to go with heads from First Mate or PCM. First Mate doesn't have them and PCM is too expensive.

I don't know what to do now. I feel like giving up on this boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:34am
Steve,
As I mentioned in my PM, since your mechanic isn't willing to cooperate, I feel you're going to have to find someone else. Pay him for his time and get the engine back.

At one time, a suggestion was made for you to do the job. You didn't feel you were capable but maybe you have a friend who could help with the hands on. We're always around too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:36am
Is his reservation about going with customer supplied parts a warranty issue? In other words, he doesn't want to warranty work done with customer supplied parts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:39am
I am not surprised with that either - which is why I recommended going to get it and working on it yourself before the shop spent any of your money tearing it apart to tell you that they couldn't fix it.   The reality is that it is a good running boat with a bit of a water leak. you could be skiing on it today. This is not a hard fix you can certainly do the work yourself just by reading a few posts, going slow and asking questions. It is about 8 hours of work, as its your first time maybe double that. Budget 1500 dollars for parts and two weekends and you can be back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:53am
" I told him what the dealer said and he shook his head and said, "they only care about the new boats. We don't sell new boats. We just fix everything else." I like that attitude!"

So much for that attitude. Any reason why they won't they source the heads from somewhere else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:01pm
They're discussing it. They don't want to be liable if something I give them doesn't work right. I can understand that. Most shops require that they use the parts that they can get. The issue here is that the PCM parts are just cost prohibitive. The shop wants to go back to OEM just like if I take my car to the dealership. They are using OEM factory parts. It's the only way they can guarantee the work and make sure it's running to spec.

I can't do this myself. I don't have the knowledge or the tools! I bought this boat as a way to get out and rehab after heart surgery. It was supposed to be fun! haha It's been in the shop more than we've been out.

The mechanic and his bosses are talking it over now trying to find a solution. We'll see what they say. But at this point I may just cut my losses and get out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:10pm
The shop is not being unreasonable, not only are the parts not from a supplier that they work with but they also aren’t an exact replacement. That is not a thing that a repair shop is qualified to do. It gets to be a lot of money and a lot of risk and simply not worth the hassle. We always hear a lot of bad mouthing of marinas for not knowing this or that, or charging too much for this or that but a lot of that is simply unrealistic expectations. People who install customer provided parts don’t stay in business very long because if they fail no one stands behind them and the marina either stands buy the job out of their own pocket or they don’t and lose customers. 99% of auto and marine repair shops won’t repair anything inside the long block of an engine regardless of who supplies the parts.   At this point you are probably looking at doing it yourself, selling the boat not running, or getting a new engine.. The tools involved would be around 200 dollars. Most of the work involved is scraping gaskets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:10pm
Fingers crossed hope all works out for you. The extra stress is not needed I'm sure. Climbing around in a boat,lifting heavy engine parts would most likely frowned upon by your heart surgeon. First timer trying to figure where all the parts in the boxes go when you didn't take it apart could be daunting too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:43pm
I just let my emotion get me when buying this. It looked so good, ran well in the water test drive and has such low hours. My last SN was a 1988 that I sold in 2002. It had over 2000 hours when I sold it and was still running perfectly! It was in the shop less than this boat the entire time! haha

So when I went to buy a boat, I immediately wanted to go back to SN because of the reliability. After surgery, I needed a stress relief and some outdoor activity to get better. You are correct, this hasn't helped. And the stress on my wife is even worse!

I'm waiting to hear from the shop and then we'll go from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:50pm
In all fairness, this is a relatively minor issue that doesn't even need immediate attention. Like Joe said, you could be skiing behind it today. You didn't buy a lemon.

There should be plenty of shops willing to buy remanufactured heads from a reputable shop and install them for you. Trying to buy parts on a 20 year old boat from the factory just isn't practical. For better or worse, they're just not in the business of supporting boats that old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:08pm
What about having the mechanic order the heads from TriState himself? I can see him not wanting to install something you bring him, but would he consider moving forward with the rebuild if he ordered them himself?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:13pm
@Jpass That's what we're working on now. The shop's position is that they don't know them or the quality they supply. But I'm waiting to hear back. As soon as they call, I'll post again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:16pm
Another issue is that my mechanic works with PCM directly all the time. He told me that PCM said not to use auto heads on this engine that it causes issues. So he's spooked from the start. The PCM guy said that the auto heads will cause issues on the EFI marine engine. True or not, now he's saying "PCM doesn't recommend it" so it's in his head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by SteveHookEm SteveHookEm wrote:

He told me that PCM said not to use auto heads on this engine that it causes issues. So he's spooked from the start.

Sounds like both PCM and the mechanic don't know the difference with marine ans automotive. PCM needs reminding on where there engines come from! Sure backs up all the suggestions of finding another person to do the work.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:30pm
The only thing is, Steve needs his current mechanic to at least put things back together, since he's the one that remembers (hopefully) how it came apart. Or else, he'll need to find someone that already knows the GT-40 inside and out. Nothing mechanics hate more than getting a box of parts as a starting point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 2:04pm
Gt40 heads were available in a very limited number of auto applications, and do in fact need a few things to make them proper for marine 351 use (drilling out bolt hole, brass core plugs, etc). If an unknowing shop were to order auto 351 heads to install, they would certainly not get what they needed. The gt40 has a closed loop efi system and cannot compensate for large changes in components- so they have good reason for their stance. That said, it's not technically 100% correct. They're erring on the safe side.

There have been enough gt40p head swaps performed onto PCM GT40's (in place of the original gt40 heads) by members here that can say with a high level of confidence that it is an acceptable swap. That is likely not the case for any old factory ford head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveHookEm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 4:36pm
They will only do the work if I go with new heads from PCM or an EFI bobtail motor for $10K (plus install). They discounted the heads to $1500 each. Still deciding what to do.

They installed a new starter (see beginning of this long thread) and ran a compression test to make sure that the new heads would be viable on this block.

Compression: #1-4: 135, #5: 145, #6-8: 135

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:19pm
Have them put it back together. Then either go skiing or find a new mechanic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:23pm
A have skied a couple seasons with aluminum tape over bigger cracks on my hitek headers.   Jb weld on the heads might even keep you dry for a while.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:27pm
+1 on Tim's idea. Now that you know what is going on you know what questions to ask when looking for a new mechanic. Don't rule out looking for a performance shop who works on Mustangs too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

A have skied a couple seasons with aluminum tape over bigger cracks on my hitek headers.    


Please expand on that comment Joe,I just bought a set PM me if you don't want to fill up his thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

A have skied a couple seasons with aluminum tape over bigger cracks on my hitek headers.    


Please expand on that comment Joe,I just bought a set PM me if you don't want to fill up his thread


It was operator error, I froze them and they cracked at a seam on the water jacket. Eventually I took them off and welded them back together, as it didn't involve the tubes themselves it was a pretty easy repair- I should have done it sooner.
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