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Dual axle trailer question

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    Posted: February-23-2016 at 8:25pm
As you know we no longer have the Ski Nautique, but I'm hoping you guys could offer some input on my trailer questions.

So our new boat sits on a double axle galvanized trailer. We purchased the boat in August and when we got her the trailer tires were in good shape with plenty of meat on them.

I've noticed the left rear tire is considerably worn. We have to make a pretty sharp left turn when pulling out and backing into the driveway. The trailer groans and makes some interesting noises.

The left rear tire is distorted quite a bit when making this sharp turn and will leave faint trails of rubber on the pavement from tire scrubbing.

I'm worried it may be more than just tire scrubbing causing this wear. I have a new tire and wheel on the way and plan to jack up the trailer and check all the bearings. I'm also a little concerned that both rear leaf springs aren't really fully seated on the mounting bolts.

Being that this is our first double axle trailer, we have no idea what is normal and what isn't. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here are some pics:











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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2016 at 8:45pm
JP,
I know alignment with a dual axle can be a problem since there are fixed dimensions but get some measurements between the axles. Are any of the bushings in the springs worn? The left rear to me may be a spindle that's welded into the axle at an angle? The only way to check it is to pull both hubs off the left, clamp straight edges to both spindles and then measure between the two. Several years ago, Billy (boat doc) had a problem scrubbing one tire with his dual. I remember he finally changed tire brands and it cured the scrubbing.

The contortions tires go through with duals it tight turning is just the nature of a dual. No way around it!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2016 at 8:58pm
Is the gap between the edge of the leaf spring and the shackle normal? Both rears are about 2" from the shackle bolt, The fronts are nice and tight. Not sure how they look when the boat is off the trailer. Boat weighs about 3500 lbs. Trailer is a 2012.

Not sure about bushing conditions. I'll have to check. earliest I could start investigating would be Fri or Sat. I was thinking of running it up to the local trailer shop this weekend to see what they have to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2016 at 9:22pm
Weird that only one tire is having issue. Makes me think something is bent, loose, broken
in that left wheel, spring, hub.

When I read the title of your post, I was expecting to all four tires to be wearing. It is pretty common that they undersize the axles on dual trailers. The damn things bow. I went through set of tires in 5K miles. Beefed up the axles and no problems since.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2016 at 9:30pm
It's practically a 90 degree turn to exit my drive. I park on the right side of our driveway and have to make a hard left to get out of the driveway. I run as wide as I can, but you can see that left rear really scrubbing hard. The tires are flexing pretty good as well.

Backing her back in is even worse as my neighbor likes to park on the street making it that much more challenging.

It's the exact same thing at the ramp we frequent only the left turns aren't quite as severe. I hope nothing is bent,

Tire pressure says 50 psi cold. When I checked them last weekend, they all read about 40. I filled them all up to 50 psi,

Right side tires:




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2016 at 11:29pm
I have one dual axle trailer, not too fond of it. The forces on all components in tight low speed turns on pavement make me cringe. Having said that, the amount of damage to that tire is way beyond what I'd expect for just a few turns. Is it predominantly the left rear? Can you drop the tongue a few more inches and see if it turns easier? Just a thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote velde99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 1:21am
So my dual axle trailer had a similar issue. Mine was the front left tire. Someone suggested that I get a different hitch to allow for better allignment. My trailer tongue was to low and was putting to much stress on the front tire. Not sure it that's what's going on with you, but something look into?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote velde99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 1:25am
So I re read your original post. What you are dealing with is very similar to what I have experienced. The one thing I have found is those 13" tires are cheap!!!! You can get new ones with a rim for like $50. When my tires need replacing in going with a quality trailer tire like Goodyear and how to see an improvement
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayTony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 2:26am
Unfortunately tight quarters with a dual or triple axle trailer is just going to be bad in general.
A good precaution is don't run aluminum wheels. They tend to break under the forces.
You will have less pneumatic trail if you run your tire pressures right where they are designed for the weight your towing. if you have a low tire it will do a lot more flexing.

Assuming all links and bushings and bearings are in decent shape the next step would be to run some string and do some measuring.
I take 4 jack stands and some twine and run them parallel on either side of the trailer and measure in to the wheels. you can measure toe and alignment of the axles to each other, you can also get a straight edge onto the inner lip of the rim and measure if you have a camber issue.
thats where i would start. You can fix these issues with a torch and a garden hose. by heating and shrinking the axle tube in certain areas depending how off they are.
I used to chew through tires in my flatbed hauler and i did some measuring one day and was appalled at how off everything was. a couple hours of heating and shrinking and she is spot on now. (you want to do this with weight on the trailer) easier to do with a boat trailer than car hauler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 8:02am
Tony,
I like your use of a dry line (twine) run front to back for measuring. It sounds like a great way to check. Side to side for checking would work as well as long as you can get the dry line at a right angle to the frame. The old "3-4-5" would come to play for the right angle.
For anyone who hasn't used the heat and then quench method of straightening or bending metal, it does work. Just keep in mind that the side you quench is the side that will shrink. As Tony mentions, if there's a pronounced bend, heating and quenching in multiple spots will be needed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 8:20am
Thanks guys. This is all very helpful.I believe the hitch height and everything are OK as she sits level when on a flat level surface.

Our driveway has a slight downward slope and then there's a drainage dip on either side of the road where it meets the driveway ramp, so the angle created when I have to make the sharp turn puts the ball lower than both the truck bumper and the tongue of the trailer creating a "v" if you can picture it (not the best way to explain it I know).

I have no idea what brand tires on the trailer as of the moment. I don't see a manufacturer name on them ( H188ST ST175/80D13).

I'm pretty confident that I'm not the right guy to be making alignment measurements on the trailer, but I will give it a whirl. Like I said earlier, I'll be running her up to the trailer place this Sat to see what they have to say. I'll video me pulling it out of the driveway so you guys can see what's really going on.

I really do appreciate all the help. Definitely not a fan of this double axle trailer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 8:33am
JP,
Keep in mind that the scrubbing you are getting on that left rear isn't from the tight turn into and out of your driveway. I feel as well as Tony feels, there's an alignment issue.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayTony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 10:39am
so the twine method truly works great. I align my trucks this way, and knowing some of the guys behind the alignment machines at town fair and such places all they are doing is setting the toe and collecting your dough anyways. half of them wouldn't know the difference between caster and camber if you asked. Mention double wish bone and they think your talking about a turkey.
It would be best to do on flat surface BUT if your clever in setting the strings you should be able to get a good idea if that wheel got tweaked on a curb or something. It looks like a tire does when its over inflated for a long time to me.
Set the strings at spindle height and straight to the TRAILER front to back. making sure they are parallel and the same distance from center of the trailer. I use jack stands and they work good. most adjustments can be done outside of the leafs and you'll be surprised how much you can move them. same method gets used for solid axle trucks.

I was thinking a bit about this last night and have you done a brake job or tested the brakes lately? That one could be hanging up or in fact be the only one left working.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 11:05am
DayTony: I've used a slightly different string alignment measurement process when I used to align the tires on my race bike. Definitely not the same as what you are referring to, but if I understand you correctly, I'm basically boxing out the trailer with string and measure the distance to the string from front and rear edges of tires looking to confirm the distances are equal for each tire/axle. If not, then we know which way the trailer is tweaked. Do I have this correct?

As for the brakes, I believe they are all working properly as I've locked up all 4 when we first purchased the trailer due to the electronic actuator coming unplugged form the harness just forward of the folding tongue, but I will definitely be checking them again. The rotors tend to rust out when they sit for a bit and it's been raining, but they all appear nice and shiny once I get moving and the pads scrub off the surface rust.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 3:18pm
I always checked my setup only AFTER pulling forward a few feet and coasting to a stop. By doing it this way you are mimicking the way the trailer goes down the road. Often times when you stop after backing up you have loaded the equalizer. Also, am I the only one that has noticed that one equalizer is parallel to the frame rail and the other is bottom out against the rail?? Again, could be because of stopping after backing up. Pull forward and see if they are both centered. Spring eyes look way out of position. By listening to your statements you will be better off to have the trailer shop look at it for an autopsy. Nothing wrong with letting someone else help out.   Many of us (me included) tend to try to carry more chain that we can swim with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Also, am I the only one that has noticed that one equalizer is parallel to the frame rail and the other is bottom out against the rail??


I thought the same thing when I first posted the pics, but the one that appears to be touching the frame actually isn't. What you're seeing is the underside of the hull. The frame sits a few inches above the rear upward end of the equalizer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2016 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by JPASS JPASS wrote:

Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Also, am I the only one that has noticed that one equalizer is parallel to the frame rail and the other is bottom out against the rail??


I thought the same thing when I first posted the pics, but the one that appears to be touching the frame actually isn't. What you're seeing is the underside of the hull. The frame sits a few inches above the rear upward end of the equalizer.


   OOPS, my bad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2016 at 10:46pm
Took her up to the trailer shop today. They said everything looked OK. He said the cheap bias ply tires were to blame and that he sees it all the time. He recommended going with radials. Looks like 2 new tires to start and then once the front ones are toast, I'll swap those out with radials as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2016 at 10:52pm
Ha, that's exactly opposite what the trailer shop tells me for the same problem. Which one did you go to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2016 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by JPASS JPASS wrote:

Took her up to the trailer shop today. They said everything looked OK. He said the cheap bias ply tires were to blame and that he sees it all the time. He recommended going with radials. Looks like 2 new tires to start and then once the front ones are toast, I'll swap those out with radials as well.

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Several years ago, Billy (boat doc) had a problem scrubbing one tire with his dual. I remember he finally changed tire brands and it cured the scrubbing.

Originally posted by Orlando76 Orlando76 wrote:

Ha, that's exactly opposite what the trailer shop tells me for the same problem. Which one did you go to?

JP,
I feel you need another opinion at another trailer shop. Call Billy and see what he did to cure his scrubbing. It was so bad that he blew a couple tires.
Did the shop actually check alignment or just take a quick look at it before trying to sell you tires?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2016 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by Orlando76 Orlando76 wrote:

Ha, that's exactly opposite what the trailer shop tells me for the same problem. Which one did you go to?


We went to Trailer Connection up in Fern Park. The only other place nearby that was open on the weekends was David's Trailers on 50.

What did the trailer shop tell you for the same issue?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2016 at 11:37pm
Pete,

He did not check the alignment, but he did crawl around and look it over. He said this trailer has very little in the way of adjustment. He said he sees this problem with the cheap bias ply tires all the time. He said it was more than likely due to the scrubbing from the sharp turns and heavy weight of the boat.

He didn't try to sell me hard on anything, but did say that raidals would be better than the bias plies.

Ramlin is nearby, but only open during the week. I have some time off planned in 2 weeks, I'll run it up to them then.

I have family in town at the moment, so I didn't have time to run any string yet. I'll try to get that done tomorrow.

Here's some pics of the scrub marks left from today. Not too bad, but there nonetheless.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 11:42am
Ran some string and took some measurements this morning before company arrived.

Here's what I got:



Not sure if the tires were bound up a bit from backing it in yesterday, but it is definitely not squared up.

I'll see if I can bang out of work a little early one day this week and run it up to Ramlin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 2:34pm
JP,
the measurements you are taking are from the rims correct? Have you checked for play in the wheel bearings? Jacking each wheel would be needed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harriss28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 3:41pm
JPASS is correct.......bias ply tires are junk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by harriss28 harriss28 wrote:

JPASS is correct.......bias ply tires are junk

Shawn,
Fill me in. I've run bias plys on trailers and have never had a problem. Do you have a background in tires or is it just an opinion from personal experience?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harriss28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 7:08pm
maybe you could do a google search????    

A good friend of mine owns a tire shop and Ive been pulling trailers for many years...so yes I do have experience and a limited background.

A bias ply tire doesnt have steel belts like a radial......there is only steel on the bead of the tire.

Bias ply tires have very weak side walls hence the reason they look like they are gonna pop off the rim when turning sharp.    

Trailers many times are sold with junk, Chinese bias plys.   As the tread wears out,   rock will cut the tires.

you pay for what you get

     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 7:47pm
That may be true with today's Chinese bias tires. But my parents pulled a tandem Airstream thousands and thousands of miles through the 70's on bias tires. They were using Goodyear trailer tires. Radials were just coming into favor at the time with the gas crunch and were not fully developed for trailers,in fact a friend tried them and promptly took out a wheel well when one of his went,taking out a cabinet where the Mrs stored her wine too. Everyone had a good laugh about that. I have towed my tandem about 2K and my single about 6K with radials with no trouble. They have come a long way over the years. Chinese tires still scare me but you don't have much choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 74Wind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 8:09pm
Not enough space I suppose but too bad someone doesn't invent a system that lifts one axle like a dump truck. Lift while maneuvering, lower while traveling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2016 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by harriss28 harriss28 wrote:

maybe you could do a google search????    

A good friend of mine owns a tire shop and Ive been pulling trailers for many years...so yes I do have experience and a limited background.

A bias ply tire doesnt have steel belts like a radial......there is only steel on the bead of the tire.

Bias ply tires have very weak side walls hence the reason they look like they are gonna pop off the rim when turning sharp.    

Trailers many times are sold with junk, Chinese bias plys.   As the tread wears out,   rock will cut the tires.

you pay for what you get

     

Shawn,
Thanks for your input. I took your advice and did a google search using "radial", "bias" and "trailer" as key words. Here's a highlight from Recstuff who is a suposed authority on trailer tires It was the first site that came up.

"What are the benefits of choosing the BIAS PLY trailer tire construction?
•Crosshatch construction provides stronger/tougher sidewalls
•Due to the design of the tire’s construction, bias ply want to roll straight as the trailer itself often does
•Generally Less Expensive

What is the best choice for my application?

Long Trips, Regular Trailer Use = RADIAL TIRE

Short Trips, Tandem axle trailers, Infrequent Use = BIAS PLY TIRE"

Notice the statement about tandems and the statement about side walls!!! Maybe you should spend more time (or less time) with that friend who owns the tire shop!!


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