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Prop question/suggestion/problem

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lcgordon View Drop Down
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    Posted: April-01-2016 at 11:23pm
So want to say thanks in advance for you guys letting a not CC guy ask questions on here.
So the motor I have is a 350 efi with 260hp I think. On the motor it says max rpm 4400-4800.

Remember im also in denver so im at 5280 elevation.

Ok so my old prop was a 13x13 oj that has some dings in it. I think we gps it at 40mph one time and im not sure what the tach said.

So just bought a acme 541 from hollywood. The thing looks great, looks brand new and he did an awesome job shipping it out quick.

So I put it on and got my first run today and we were at 40.5 or so mph. That is with half a tank and 2 ppl in the boat. When my buddy went in the back we touched 41. The rpm was at 4200ish maybe a touch over that not 4300 tho.

So now Im wondering what you guys would recomend for a prop with those numbers I just gave you. Just to refresh your memory the 541 is a 13x12. Another option is the 543 and thats a 13x11.5. Im also wondering if I could go to a 13x11? I dont know anything about props I could be going the wrong way here. I do know acme says the 543 should give you an extra 150 rpm or so.

Thanks again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chuckactor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2016 at 11:56pm
If your hitting 4200 I think your doing well. I have an 85 2001 and live just north of you in Ft Collins. When I first got the boat it struggled to hit 4000 RPM. Even with a tune up I could barely hit 38-39mph. I ended up with an Acme 912 which is a 13x10.5. RPM is up about 10%. To be honest I don't think I picked up alot of speed if any but it sure pulls hard out of the hole now. Probably like it's supposed to run at sea level. I might play with the jetting a bit this season,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2016 at 12:09am
Thanks for the info. My footing partner used to have a 79 MC and stock prop here in denver got him 39 and with the 541 it got him 42. I mean you should be able to get the max or close to it rpm out of your motor if you prop it right. I am willing to sacrifice hole shot a bit if it means I can one foot. Through the slalom course and get up it did do great. I was really looking for some more footing speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2016 at 7:40am
Id order a 913 if it were me. Figure 300-400rpm per inch of pitch change, so that would put you in your 4600-4800 range that you want to aim for. In this case it should be a win win for top end and holeshot. I wouldn't expect to pick up a lot of top end but probably a little (1mph or so) vs the 541. Holeshot will improve more noticeably, though I'm sure that 541 was a significant improvement over the stock prop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-03-2016 at 12:21am
Ok so Update. I have been having this idle problem where it would idle fine and then when you reved it up it would not go down past about 1500 rpm. So when trying to figure that out we noticed the perfect pass cable was too short to allow the throttle cable to reach full throttle. Also the idle problem was the cable pivot end, the part that connects the throttle cable to the throttle control, is worn about half way through. So I swapped the end with the transmission one (just for this weekend will order some monday) and I put on the regular piece that connects the throttle cable to the throttle body. After a bit of adjustment it worked perfectly. Also (I put the stock prop back on so that i did not dent the new one for some stupid reason) so with running the stock prop it got me almost 100 more rpm and it went from 40mph to 42 mph so tomorrow morning im going to put on the 541 and test it. I think I will like it after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-03-2016 at 3:08pm
Update from today put the prop on and it pulled me about 40 footing and it was bouncing between 41-42 with not footer. It had lower rpm from the stock prop too by maybe 50 or so. So time to put the stock one on and look for the next option. Maybe the 543 or the 912 like TRBenj suggested. Its pretty frustrating
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GlassSeeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-03-2016 at 4:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-03-2016 at 4:50pm
Sorry not sure what that is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-03-2016 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by lcgordon lcgordon wrote:

. Maybe the 543 or the 912 like TRBenj suggested. Its pretty frustrating


If your running a left handed prop you'd want a 913 like Tim suggested. A 912 is a righty. I just got a 913 from Delta a site sponsor for $346. Took several weeks,they did not have it in stock so they had to order from Acme.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-03-2016 at 11:38pm
Yeah I looked it up and noticed that. I just thought the 541 would change my life like ppl said it would. I noticed zero difference and it may have been a bit worse. Just may be my boat i guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 8:30am
Originally posted by lcgordon lcgordon wrote:

Yeah I looked it up and noticed that. I just thought the 541 would change my life like ppl said it would. I noticed zero difference and it may have been a bit worse. Just may be my boat i guess.



Keep in mind Landis, you're in relatively foreign territory. Trying to get prop or carb help for people at sea level comes pretty easy for us after quite a few years of experience. 5280' is quite another story. We're learning just as you are.

FYI, when I was doing prop testing for my AmSkier my stock Federal prop was a 13x12 that was repitched and rebuilt to 13x13. I turned that sucker 5800 and got 55MPH out of it but it pretty much just sat there boiling water until I let off of it a little and had to ease it out of the hole to WOT .
After trying virtually every version of OJ available and a couple different ACME's none of them could match that 55MPH WOT speed. They came close but none matched it. Virtually all of them had much better performance through the entire RPM range though. Some better then others.
The guys at AmSkier finally got smart and started putting 13x13 props on the boats from the factory (vs. the 13x12) like they should have always had. The point I'm trying to make is that the factory prop on these AmSkiers is pretty good already and the noticeable performance improvements experienced by CC owners is not going to be the same. It's still a completely different hull.
Improvements can still be made however and virtually every AmSkier running the proper ACME prop experiences better OVERALL performance then the factory wheel. All it takes is a little experimentation.

You're also at a big disadvantage already being at altitude with a bone stock 260HP engine. Yet you still want it to be able to run 42-43MPH for barefooting. I would be really surprised if any similar boat can do that without some some serious engine mods or having a stock engine running significantly more HP.
Keep working at it with the best guess knowledge you'll find here. I'm sure you'll find a better wheel then the factory. I just don't know that you'll find the results you're truly expecting but I also truly hope I'm completely wrong.


When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 9:39am
Originally posted by chuckactor chuckactor wrote:

If your hitting 4200 I think your doing well. I have an 85 2001 and live just north of you in Ft Collins.   I ended up with an Acme 912 which is a 13x10.5. RPM is up about 10%. To be honest I don't think I picked up alot of speed if any but it sure pulls hard out of the hole now.


Originally posted by backfoot100 backfoot100 wrote:

You're also at a big disadvantage already being at altitude with a bone stock 260HP engine. Yet you still want it to be able to run 42-43MPH for barefooting. I would be really surprised if any similar boat can do that without some some serious engine mods or having a stock engine running significantly more HP.


I'm with these guys in that I doubt any prop is going to get you the speed you're looking for with that engine, hull and elevation. You're going to need to get some significant RPM increase to overcome further pitch drop to net higher top speeds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 9:51am
Thanks guys for the help. I know nothing about props and the MC guys love the 541. My buddy had an older MC and it gave him 3 mph and his rpms were at his max. So I thought it would help my boat. The thing that has got me is that my boat turns more rpms with the stock prop and also gets a higher speed. I mean we are talking like 50 rpm or so so there is alot of factors like wind chop and driving in which direction on the lake and stuff but by the calculations 13x13 to a 13x12 should give me 200 or so more rpm. Atleast once I took the too short of perfect pass cable off it did give me an extra mph tho and I could notice it while footing. Im not doubting you guys that my boat may just not be able to get what I am wanting, I am just confused because everybody says that I should have gotten better results by atleast a little over my stock prop. Oh well time to just be happy with what I have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 9:54am
What is your boat? From Eddie's comments must be an American Skier, what year?

If you love the boat and plan to keep it, I would think you could get some more HP out of that 350 at a reasonable cost, even given your altitude. You probably need 50-60 more HP to get where you want to be, footing in low 40's without needing to run at WOT. Or, going to a GT-40 powered boat would do the trick, mid to late '90's Ski Nautiques are pretty reasonably priced at this point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 10:18am
1994 American skier Tbx

Its a budget boat. I dont make much money and denver is expensive to live in. For footing out here I really need an outboard. An old Barefoot warrior with a 225 should do. Maybe someday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 10:34am
Got it. In some ways I think everyone on this site has some sort of budget boat, so you are not alone!

Guys, would Landis benefit from a carb re-jetting for his altitude? I'm wondering if it's jetted for us normal sea level people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 10:55am
Nope. We were over this in another thread. Maybe the barefoot thread. It's a EFI SBC and exactly the reason why I'm such an anti-EFI guy. They're awesome at self adjusting to virtually all conditions but you get what you got. Adding HP is not a cheap option like you can do with a carbed motor.
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 11:25am
Some iron vortec heads should perk it right up i suspect. Just have to dial in the all-in timing , as those heads don't need as much advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 11:26am
My bad, assumed it was a carb motor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 12:16pm
Thanks again guys for the help and suggestions.

I just got off the phone with acme, think I talked to kevin. He went over some numbers with me and he suggested the 1609 which is the same as the 1608 for you guys who spin the right way. He told did the math and it should get me to 4550 ish rpm. He thinks I may get a mph but it would be better for my boat to spin less prop and not have such a high load.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 12:25pm
You're a couple years late, Once upon a time I had a 1225, 1609 and 543. Have you found any avenues to demo?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 12:26pm
There should NOT be a significant difference in WOT between a properly tuned (not flexy) 13x13 Oj or Federal and a 13x12 Acme. You cannot compare prop sizes exactly across different brands- too many design differences. The 200-300 rpm delta for 1" pitch applies to Acmes. It's pretty close for comparing oj's. Can't use it to compare acme vs Oj.

Top speed should be similar between a 541 and a 13x13 hand finished Oj or federal. The federal is a good top end prop when unloaded in my experience. Not so much with a skier behind the boat- acme wins that for sure. Holeshot, smoothness and mid range power are significantly improved with the acme (esp vs the federal). Some people struggle to feel the difference in the seat of their pants. Others notice the difference. I've lined similar boats up side by side and run them over and over with different props on each and can attest to the performance advantage of the acme. Hand finished Oj was an improvement over the federal but couldn't match the acme in any way. Except top end when unloaded- but not for skiing.

Anyways, you're still leaving performance on the table at 4200-4300. You don't need to be an expert on altitude tuning to know that. Get an acme that allows you to turn 4600-4800 at wot and that'll maximize what you can get without changing something more drastic (engine hp). I suspect it won't be huge (maybe 1 more mph) vs where you are now, but it'll be moving in the right direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 12:30pm
1609 looks like a 543 with .020 less cup. He's probably close on the 4550rpm guess.

Since you're a footer and really care most about top speed under a load, I'd be aiming towards the higher end of the range (4600-4800) when unloaded. Hence my 913 advice. 4550 is a step in the right direction but still comes up short.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 12:34pm
Tim, do you really believe he's ever going to see 4600-4800 at elevation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

You're a couple years late, Once upon a time I had a 1225, 1609 and 543. Have you found any avenues to demo?


Bummer I need all of those! and with acme I can buy and ship back so I guess you can call that demoing.

TRBenj-Thanks for that post it pretty much sums up the basics of what I need to know. I will try to keep trying until shipping props gets too expensive. On a positive note I have learned how to change a prop pretty well ( not that there is anything to it). I need to get a big box of cotter keys trying to straighten them and get them back in is a pain and probably weakens them and is not the best thing to do incase something did actually happen.

Btw I love the suit you sold me it fits me perfect and is really easy to get on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 12:41pm
Get yourself a box of stainless cotter pins from McMaster that will last you a lifetime of prop swaps for under $10. Pretty sure I use 1/8" x 1.5". I use 18-8 but Pete will tell you 316 is better.
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Thanks for that Ill do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 1:01pm
I also buy 1/4" brass key stock and cut it down... Good call on the McMaster cotter pins.

Kev, of course he'll see 4600-4800, just gotta prop down further at altitude. I do not believe he is above the altitude where there ceases to be oxygen in the atmosphere.

Call delta and see if they're willing to let you return a prop of it doesn't run optimally. They used to have a pretty generous return/trial policy, but confirm they're ok with it beforehand.

Knowing the 13x13 and 541 data point, I'd make a big jump to the 913 next and see what you get. Dial it back a bit if necessary but i bet you'll end up close to where you want to be with it.

Glad the suit fits!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 1:10pm
Ok thanks Ill give them a call. and see what they say. I really hope I can get away with one more prop buy because at 20 bucks a pop to ship it gets a bit expensive to do alot of it. Its worth it to get some toe hold tho I guess. The shoes are fun but Im ready for barefeet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2016 at 1:12pm
There's oxygen up there alright, maybe not as much as inside your head though...
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