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Prop question/suggestion/problem

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lcgordon View Drop Down
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    Posted: July-07-2016 at 3:51pm
Im not sure the thing looks brand new.

I obviously am not in the position to do a same day test on all props even though I guess I still have most of them.

Im kinda tired of dealing with them. I wanna just ski.

Footed behind a big block malibu the other day and it was awesome. We pinned it and were going atleast 45. Was alot of fun. Water was crap though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2016 at 1:29pm
Different ambient (air and water) conditions and temperatures, fuel level, boat load (amount of weight and location within the boat) will all cause variations in test results. Very difficult to compare results from 4+ months ago under very different conditions. Back to back, same day, same conditions, same loading, etc would a least produce apples to apples results to compare.

4600rpm should have allowed the boat to run fastest. The fact that the GPS results don't back that up lead me to suspect loading variation and ambient condition differences causing skewed results. Unless that 913 was tired, or otherwise damaged (obvious or not).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2016 at 1:23pm
Haha ok Its been pretty long for me also. All I know is that the new oj is the best. Ill look through and get exact numbers and make a list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2016 at 12:56pm
Maybe you can summarize your prop tests (mfg/diameter/pitch/cup) and RPM vs speed [loaded & unloaded] in one concise chart instead of scattered about inside long written posts. It's been far too long to remember everything. I've given up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2016 at 12:24pm
So got out last night to test the 913. We did a top speed run with 3 ppl in the boat. We were bouncing between 39-40 at 4600rpm. So time to sell that prop. I need to get the OJ 12.5x11.5 back on and do a speed and rpm test. I got speed with a footer was 41-42 bouncing between and with no footer rpm was 4300ish. But forgot to check speed on that run. Out of the hole the 913 was awesome tho. It had some hit. I think Im going to stick with the OJ tho. So if anybody wants a 913 let me know but im guessing you wont.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-24-2016 at 11:45am
Thanks I will check what I get the best bang for buck. Also what they have. Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-24-2016 at 12:21am
Another alternative is synthetic grease. It doesn't eat plastic like petrol grease does. You can get little tubes of high temp brake caliber grease at auto parts stores for a few $, usually at the counter.
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-23-2016 at 2:12pm
Thanks for the quick reply. I do have a brass nylock nut but there in a hole still for a cotter pin. Just for safety it hangs back behind the nut.

Thanks for the grease rec.

I lapped the first one but since I have switched them out after about every run I have not done it lately. WIll do to the prop that stays on the boat for more than 1 run. I figure 90% of boaters dont lap their props so it should make it for a run to test it without doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-23-2016 at 1:59pm
Landis,
Get a BRASS Nylock prop shaft nut so you won't need to drill out the shaft. A distorted hole is hard to drill since the bit will, as you found out, grab and then break. If you want to continue to use the castle nut, you would be better off using a reamer on the hole.

A silicone grease will not affect plastic parts. Small tubes of dielectric grease which is silicone based are available at auto supplies.

You have been lapping all the props to the shaft correct?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-23-2016 at 12:57pm
So the boat is all done. Took it out last night and tried the new oj prop. Did not have much time so did not do a test run with no footer. Jumped right into footing. I forgot to check rpm (I was not driving) but the speed was bouncing between 40-41 with a footer is pretty good. With the old prop it was doing that with no footer. I still have another prop to try also. Next week I will get some better tests in.

I do have a couple random questions. First my steering wheel assembly is squeaking bad. I have been spraying it with lube and it helps for a bit but goes back to squeaking. I would like to get some grease in there but need a good recommendation because I know there are plastic parts in there. Dont want to hurt those with regular grease.

Second my drive shaft I have taken the prop off so much that there is a dimple in the back from the puller and it has pushed the shaft into the hole where my cotter key goes into. I tried to drill out the hole where the pin goes but I broke the bit. Should I drill from the back? What bits would I need to drill the shaft?

Thanks again guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 2:20pm


Finally Got the fiberglass done last night. Time to put it back together and go test some props.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2016 at 12:13pm


Got the log stuck down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2016 at 1:07am
It would take me months in the winter but its ski time now. Good thing there are lots of other boats to use. Its actually not that bad. I have about 3 hrs into it and about 45 min was wasted trying to grind around the shaft with a dremel. Then I was told to just do it all so I got the grinder with the masonry wheel out took the shaft out and got to work. Lets just say my garage has a thin layer of white dust everwhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2016 at 12:13am
You get the efficiency prize!    A project that size would take me months to finish . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

Should be much more dry inside after its finished ha. Good time to check condition of the cutlass bearing as well as do a fresh shaft alignment. Repack the gland with gortex and never look back.


Well during the winter I knew the boat was leaking so I resealed the bond line in the back and bought a new stuffing box. Mine was wore crooked from being out of alignment and new gfo packing went in. Shaft had to come out for that so I did the cutlass bearing and the rudder at that time. Then realigned the motor. I thought that would fix it all and I guess not. Now the shaft and rudder are back out again so I can do this. Atleast it only took like 30min this time because I knew what I was doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:36pm
Yeah did not think it was going to be this until I filled the bilge up with water and it was a steady stream out of where the shaft goes through. When grinding it out I could see why. All my fiberglass stuff should be in today along with a new shaft log. I should have it on the water maybe next week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:33pm
Should be much more dry inside after its finished ha. Good time to check condition of the cutlass bearing as well as do a fresh shaft alignment. Repack the gland with gortex and never look back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:21pm
oh boy, that's quite the little project you got there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2016 at 4:59pm


The shaft log was not even stuck down to the hull anymore. It was also leaking through cracked fiberglass in the front that was built up around the log. Been grinding it all out and hoping to get it back together this week. It is ready to be put back together right now. Oh and there was a hold in the metal shaft long.

Have not tried the OJ but I got the acme for 100 bucks off craigslist so could not pass that up. Figured I would atleast try it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2016 at 4:50pm
You haven't even ran the new OJ yet?

So where the hell is your water leak? It sure isn't the bilge blower tube!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2016 at 4:43pm
Get to finally try out TRBenj recommendation. I picked up a acme 913 today so we will see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2016 at 11:45am
Just got word back from eric at oj and he said he sent the right prop. He said he modified it for me and wants me to try it. Just need to get the fiberglass work done so I can.

Just to throw my opinion down on what all you guys have been taking about. I dont think a prop will give me 2 more mph. I used to. That was because of not knowing and being uninformed. Like hearing adam say he put the 541 on his boat and it went from 39 to 42. Or ppl on here before ask me if my boat is propped right. Then you hear everybody praise acme or praise the cnc props. That is why I thought I could get more speed but now I know. Its kinda like this weekend I was a third in a guys tristar (he riding an airchair super cool btw. he was throwing rolls and front fips.) his motor was carbed and it would not idle. Then he upped the idle and it still had trouble if you slowly put it into gear. People have that vision of a carb in their minds when actually it was not tuned correctly im sure.

Oh and there are two different situations when talking about boats. Right now im on a budget. Like a spend a couple hundred bucks budget. But I hope in a couple of years I wont be on that strict of a budget and I can get a nicer boat that I really like that does everything pretty well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2016 at 5:35pm
Black foot thanks for the pics. I was wondering if you could take that tube out. The crack is not in the top. That x is just for the visual. It is inside of the tube in the bottom of the hull. You can get your head in the back and see it. I may just cut the back half out of the tube or just get rid of it all together.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2016 at 12:27pm
True I was thinking older hulls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2016 at 12:03pm
Some federals will run pretty decent up top without a load. It has not been my experience that federals run fastest in modern-sized ski boats (2001 and later), though the lighter/smaller 16' boats respond to them (purely top end, they still suck for all around use). Newer/larger boats have run faster with Acmes, in my experience- though sometimes the federals are close. That changes quite a bit with a barefooter behind the boat though, the Acmes hold speed much better. For all around use, the federals are pretty horrid in comparison. I had a 13x13 federal 3-blade on a 415hp 502 barefoot nautique and you had to nail it out of the hole when pulling a barefooter. We've really become spoiled with the responsiveness of modern props.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2016 at 10:44am
I thought wev e always agreed Federals gave best top end?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2016 at 10:18am
Originally posted by Luchog Luchog wrote:


I think he got the best performance out of an old bronze propeller, that certainly goes against everything we have preached on CNC propeller design/performance figures.
Keep in mind CNC propellers are designed for standarized boats and uses.
I believe that, starting from a either a CNC or non-CNC propeller, he could get it modified and obtain better numbers, not only stick with what ACME or OJ have on their catalogs. I dont know which company would be better to work this out with.
There are many factors beyond pitch and diameter that could be adressed in order to obtain better performance and not all hulls respond the same to them.

Most of the times propellers are good to go off the box, but for very demanding users or specific performance goals, they sure need some extra tunning. It may be a long way and even might no throw improvements at the end, but it can also be a good learning experience. I think with the numbers and testing he's doing, it will make a good base for further propeller tunning.


All good points and exactly the reason I'm saying that he won't find 2MPH from purely a prop change in this situation.
I have an American Skier. My Advance hull is nowhere near his TBX hull but it's a hell of lot closer then what any CC hull is to it. That's pretty much evident in the proof that his boat is currently faster then any other CC that has 50 more HP. It's obviously a faster hull.
I've tested OJ Nibral and CNC three and four blades with and without cup and I'm currently running an ACME which was the best overall performer. I can tell you that I got the fastest top end speed with the factory prop. The holeshot sucked but purely from a WOT speed, that Federal was fastest and I highly doubt that he find anything else that will be any faster.

So here are my personal observations:
1) Go and buy that 176 for $15k (price is purely for arguments sake) and still be looking for more speed.
2) Go buy a 383 like Andy (Glasseeker) has done. It'll bolt right in and he'll have at least 75 extra HP immediately with EFI. He'll have a friggin' rocket compared to anything in his buddies stable of boats now and for half the price of that 176.
3) and the cheapest way for a few years until he can get his 176 that won't be fast enough is Vortec heads and intake, lose the EFI and put a carb on top. All for about $2K he'll easily get that 2MPH and a maybe a little to boot.

Again, purely my observations. My personal choice would be option 2. I'm very anti-EFI but Landis seems to want to be able to keep it. Then again, I'm pretty American Skier biased...LOL.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2016 at 9:30am
Originally posted by lcgordon lcgordon wrote:

Found it there is a crack in the bottom of the hull. Its inside this weird fiberglass tube that the blower hose goes into. So I need to fix that before I can test props.


That tube isn't a thru-hull. It was put there exactly for the reason you mention. The blower hose gets attached to the fore end and then another hose aft goes up to the transom vent for an exhaust. It's just a PVC tube glassed to the bottom of the hull. That crack is there from stepping on it when the rear center floor section is out for some sort of maintenance. Bilge water is finding it's way into the tube from either end.
Mine had a crack in it that was about 2' long and it was twisting my ankle every time I needed to work on something back there. I just ground it out completely when I redid my bilge. There is no leak from that.

You can see the tube in the lower left before removal.


And after.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lcgordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-21-2016 at 11:29pm


This is the tube and the crack is where the x is marked in pencil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-21-2016 at 2:50pm
EFI can be sensitive to Vacuum changes in the engine. Boring .030 over makes a very minor change in cubic inches, Maybe 5 cubic inches at .030. What general public does not know is that aftermarket pistons are de stroked, normally .020 or more.   The de stroke is done because many used engines have had the heads milled or the blocks decked.
They de stroke them all to avoid deck height issues in used engines.   
The de stroked pistons will pull less vacuum at idle and can cause issues in a sensitive engine like the Pro Boss GT 40.

I still feel changing the compression by swapping heads with no other changes would not alter the fuel need of the engine. You take in the same amount of fuel and air. It just gets squeezed tighter before lighting off. Increased compression gives a stronger idle vacuum and I have never heard of a strong vacuum messing up a computer read but a lower vacuum will mess up idle quality.
Most other changes would affect the fuel air ratio and mess you up.
- Vortec head design (would need new timing settings)
- change to open headers would need more fuel
- stroked to 383 would need more fuel
- camshaft upgrade would need new fuel mix and change the idle vacuum messing up the ECU
Swapping to 64cc chambers - No change.
A few thoughts for those considering change.
And Keep in mind this advice was for a 6,000 foot elevation. Adding compression at seal level would change your fuel needs, Premium or better fuel would be mandatory and not worth it to most people.   At 6,000 feet you could run regular due to thinner air.
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