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Excel/barefoot Prop selection after rebuilt engine

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    Posted: June-16-2016 at 4:14am
Finally (long process with our new son) the rebuilt engine and trans are in the boat. Wanted to check with the experts about a new prop since there are not too many with the 454 chevy (1991 Excel). V-drive is a 1.21. and velvet drive is 1:1

WOT with 2 people and 25 gal gas, and lake elevation at 550" was 4250RPM and GPS 49 MPH, 3500 RPM= 42MPH, 3000= 36.5MPH, 2200= 25 MPH. Newer tachometer and verified with a timing light with RPM also, Added 700lbs ballast and MPH went down to about 47.5 and just a few less rpm (hard to tell).

The prop that came with the boat is an ACME 380 (stamped on prop is 13.5" diameter x 17.5" pitch VR). Looks like some 380's were 17" pitch. I shorten my prop shaft to get more clearance from the rudder.

I spend about 20 days at the lake a year. Almost half at 3600' and the other half around 700' elevation.

My engine builder is not afraid of high RPM for this engine. Compression ratio is just north of 9. Cam was reground (I have numbers available if needed). Running 91 octane gas and timing is set at 34*. Intake manifold is an Edelbrock Performer 2-0.

Last year with old engine, at 3600" lake with about 1250lbs of people and a full tank of gas it barely, I mean barely got on plane. Thats one of the main reasons I'm looking for prop. Looks like this year will be about the same amount of people weight, probably more.

WOT with old engine and new engine is about the same RPM and MPH.

I see ACME 644, ACME 536, OJ 431, Im sure there is others. Is ACME better than OJ? What prop looks like the best. Thanks for the help, including all people in the old topics that I have read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 9:59am
4250 at wot is too low. With jus a half point CR bump and still breathing through peanut port heads, I would guess power output is pretty similar to a stock 330hp. I'd be aiming for 4600 or so, maybe 4600-4800 at the lower altitude to make sure you compensate for running at 3600'.

Not familiar with the props listed but I'd be looking to drop about an inch of pitch to gain 400 rpm. If there is a non-pancake option, that's what I'd opt for. 380 is a pancake, 644 is not, IIRC. 1160 might be worth inquiring about as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *mtrbtr* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 11:54am
My friend had the same boat with the same engine and he ran the ACME 328.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 8:32pm
Talked with Jim at ACME and he suggested #1846 (14x14.25 .150 cup). I should be up in the 4750-4800 rpm and lose a few MPH. According to Hotboat the 380 is not a pancake prop, and my clearances don't suggest that it's a pancake.

Anyone have any experiences with the prop above or a 1630 (same prop but 13.5" diameter)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 9:55pm
Doubt you can really compair but just for info my gt 40 powered vdrive ss is turning a 380 at 4700 and 46 mph
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 12:15am
1.5:1 vs 1.21:1, Gary.

Jim is out to lunch. Dropping more than 3" of pitch is going to raise your wot by over 1000rpm. It'll put you so far past your powerband that an exact wot rpm is tough to predict. I bet you'll lose more than a few mph. If you're running loaded most of the time that may be the way to go, but definitely not if all around performance (including top end) is your goal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 12:40am
Did not realize there are so many ratios now I wonder what trans mine has---
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 12:44am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

1.5:1 vs 1.21:1, Gary.

Jim is out to lunch. Dropping more than 3" of pitch is going to raise your wot by over 1000rpm. It'll put you so far past your powerband that an exact wot rpm is tough to predict. I bet you'll lose more than a few mph. If you're running loaded most of the time that may be the way to go, but definitely not if all around performance (including top end) is your goal.


I thought the same thing about dropping 3" of pitch, but then he told me about the extra cup. .045" is = to 1" of pitch. So if I drop 3" of pitch and then add 1" for the extra cup (.105 vs .150), I'm only dropping 2" of pitch. His said theoretical for the difference between my prop and the #1846 is 214 rpm ish and I'll be 500-600 more RPM than my #380 prop. Theoretical top speed i think he said would be about 45 mph. The prop company I'm working with sounds like they have a no hassle guarantee. I hope I don't have to try it out their guarantee!

Jim said the #536 (13.5x16) would add 300-350 rpm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 2:40am
Dave, I'm not sure you need to sacrifice 4 mph. You're dropping pitch to bring your engine into it's optimum powerband by gaining 400-600 rpm at WOT. I don't see why you won't improve your holeshot and ability to roll over onto plane while keeping close to your current WOT speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2016 at 3:19pm
Most big blocks spin a 644 4700-4800 at sea level or close to it. Good prop but I imagine you will want a little more for compensate for elevation,

Tim, 380 a pancake? Those things looked pretty raked to me. New sport comes stock with a 381 and its aggressive looking.

Tim is the big block authority and is correct. Peanut heads with a bump in compression will probably just run like a good running stock motor. The intake might help just a tick but probably not noticeable. All things said minus the cam variable (which isn't going to be much better than stock) I would venture you are making about 340 horse. You ideally want to be turning it 4600. The stockers run out of steam pretty quick approaching 4800 with the peanut port heads.

The 328 is a turd prop for a big block, don't even consider that. It is about the only decent choice for a small block though.

The 856 might get you right at 4800.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2016 at 3:29pm
Yeah not the 380... I'm thinking of the acme that fits a non-short shafted excel. Is that the 328? Whatever it is, it's a pancake and I'd avoid using it on a boat that's been short shafted to allow use of a raked prop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2016 at 3:32pm
Yup, 328. Pancake and not nearly enough for a nice running stock big block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2016 at 6:22pm
I thought the heads were oval. My heads looked stock, looked like original paint. I'll have to look at pictures from last year when I had the heads off. I told Jim that I have 2" if clearance from prop to hull and he said he want me to run the largest diameter prop for better weight carrying and holeshot. I know he also compensated for the elevation. He also mentioned the extra cup would do better for me.

Hopefully I don't pass 4800 rpm with the peanut heads so I don't run out of air.

My next lake day will be at 3600 with the new prop. All things being equal, if I tach out at 4800, then move down to 600' elevation, how much of a difference, could anyone guess?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2016 at 6:57pm
No guess on the change in altitude here.

Peanuts are a sub-category of oval. All 330hp marine engines had peanuts, I believe. "Large ovals" exist (never used on marine engines afaik) and flow much better. Then there are rectangle (square) port heads- totally different animal.

I am on board with maximizing diameter- so long as you don't infringe on hull clearance (gel damage will ensue). Dropping pitch will gain you holeshot and increase wot rpm. I am not a fan of increasing cup beyond the typical range where it works well (.080-.105). Beyond that, while it is still effective in dialing in rpm, it seems to lose efficiency. Moves towards the target rpm therefore do not translate to speed increases.

Again, if you're looking for a holeshot/heavy load/high altitude prop, this will likely work very well. But it will add rpm everywhere and lower your top end significantly. There are better all around prop options that don't come with all those sacrifices.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2016 at 8:40pm
You guys have me worried now. I had 2" clearance between prop and hull. New prop should be 1 5/8" probably closer to 1.75". Jim said that's plenty of room but in your opinion is that bordering in too close (you guys own the boats and see, Jim only gets to hear what's told to him). Should I be looking at the 13.5" props?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2016 at 12:45am
Dave, this thread is long but if you look at page 4 it has some numbers about the HP drop due to altitude.

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38359&PN=1&title=prop-question-suggestion-problem
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2016 at 4:13am
Link didn't work but I figured it out. Thanks for the thread, it helped me to see that it will be close when I run on the lower elevation lakes. I'm in a hard crash course on prop engineering. I see that the extra cup will make the prop not be efficient at high speed.
Prop #1 ACME 1846 14 x 14.25 with .150 cup (raise rpm 500-600 rpm)
Prop #2 ACME 536 13.5 x 16 with .105 cup (raise rpm 300-350 rpm)
Prop #3 OJ 486 13.7 x 15 with .080 cup
Prop #4 OJ 445 13.7 x 15.5 with .090 cup (I think OJ said this will raise my rpm by 300-400).
It doesn't seem like ACME has an in between prop. Looks like the extra cup is what I'm going to get if I stay with ACME. The OJ props is CNC. Prop #3 spin correct RPM? I read on Michigan Wheel website that prop to hull should be at least 15% but 20% (of diameter) is better from prop to hull. I think ACME said only 10%. Who's right? Should I just stick with a 13.5 prop since the is no cavitation now? I know stock prop was 14" diameter but it was also a pancake prop, not sure if raked props make more cavitation. If I stay with ACME and go to 13.5 the prop is #1630. Not sure whats spinning faster, these props or my head!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave12gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2016 at 4:21am
One more, will the extra cup cause more bow rise?
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