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Cooling issue = Blown head gasket

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2016 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Dreaming Dreaming wrote:

this is where I feel that the BS comes in.... since the exhaust gasses are present in the cooling system by design, I don't know how the mechanic was able to determine that the head gasket was leaking by doing a chemical test.    in an automotive style application (much like Gary was saying) the coolant and the combustion gasses are not meant to intermingle.    Therefore, if there are exhaust gasses in the radiator, you have a head gasket leak.    It seems to me that with a wet exhaust on a boat, the water before the engine would be free of exhaust gas, as it comes from the lake or the hose or the bucket. On the exit side though, exhaust gasses would be present anywhere after the 90°collector at the top of the exhaust manifold.    if Exhaust gasses were present before that, it could be just that the Exhaust manifold is leaking, or could be a head gasket leak, but I don't think you could realistically determine the source, or realistically connect the chemical collecting device.


Honestly that was my first thought when they told me how they tested it. I posted on here because I wasn't 100% convinced it was a head gasket and wanted to get feedback (and I'm still not convinced)...They are a reputable shop and have been around for a long time...My boat was actually sold new there when they used to sell Correct Crafts back in the 80s. Now they are a just a MasterCraft/Malibu dealer...Anyway, he said they had done the test before on another boat and it was a head gasket. He did say his next step would be to check the exhaust manifolds for leaks before tearing down the engine. At this point I have some troubleshooting of my own to do before jumping to any conclusions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2016 at 12:33pm
I would absolutely be pulling the manifolds and risers to check and clean them. That is basic and will only cost you a set of gaskets (unless of course you snap or round off a bolt head )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2DLake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:18pm
I am far from an expert, but noticed in your description of the problem photo that you said there were bubbles in the strainer. With bubbles in the strainer I would immediately suspect strainer gasket (o-ring) issues. I saw that you checked connections to the strainer but didn't mention the gasket. Thought I would throw that out since I haven't seen it mentioned.

Hope you find the issue soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

I would absolutely be pulling the manifolds and risers to check and clean them. That is basic and will only cost you a set of gaskets (unless of course you snap or round off a bolt head )


ditto...   If you find the manifolds and risers to be good, and you don't feel comfortable with the head gasket job, you can take the boat to the shop with the manifolds off, you will have saved them the trouble, as they would need to take the manifolds off to do a proper job anyway.   Gaskets are a given as you would need them either way.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

run a continuous piece from pick up to trans cooler eliminating the strainer (cut the hose and add back in later). "Bubbles in the strainer" is not normal. Many times in clear water you can't even tell there is liquid flowing through it. You might also have a cracked or loose strainer bowl, they get tight and very difficult to seal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2DLake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:56pm
You are dead on it Hollywood. Don't know how I missed that one. Even looked back through the thread before I posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2016 at 1:24pm
Also consider just take the pump outlet off at the thermostat, start it up.

Observe the flow of the water delivery system up to that point.

when above idle, the hose should send water up over the gunnel.

Just beware the open thermostat inlet will burp hot water when started due to the exhaust pressure clearing the mufflers.

When you then ensured the engine is receiving proper volume of water, work the issue toward the engine.

Have YOU had the thermostat housing off yet for inspection?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2016 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Also consider just take the pump outlet off at the thermostat, start it up.

Observe the flow of the water delivery system up to that point.

when above idle, the hose should send water up over the gunnel.

Just beware the open thermostat inlet will burp hot water when started due to the exhaust pressure clearing the mufflers.


When you then ensured the engine is receiving proper volume of water, work the issue toward the engine.

Have YOU had the thermostat housing off yet for inspection?


Yes, the shop actually went through two thermostats while they were troubleshooting. The mechanic said he cleaned a bit of rust/scale out of it. I haven't had a chance to mess with the boat yet, but my plan is to do some diag of my own this weekend with the help of my neighbor that is a mechanic. And Interestingly enough, said neighbor just so happens to have a set of GT40p heads off of a late 90s Mountaineer! Very tempting regardless if the issue is a bad gasket or not!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2016 at 3:57pm
Every cast iron thermostat housing is going to be rusty on the inside, nbd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2016 at 4:09pm
Our 89 looks to move more water than yours judging by the video but it still gets hot. It doesn't drain a 5 gallon bucket with anywhere near the enthusiasm of my 85 or most recently the 90 Prostar we just sold, (have also ran the 85 RWP on the 89 with no change).

All good info above so far. Hoses are cheap and need to be done as maintenance anyways. Cut the strainer out for testing. Cleaning the manifolds is cheap like HW said and gives you piece of mind.

I am planning on hoses on my brothers boat when we pull it off the lift this fall just to check but I am 90ish percent sold on the fact it has some internal block restriction somewhere. 155 degrees all day long until you run it over 4100 rpms or come back to idle after extended at RPM running.

Side note: Cleaning the manifolds out on this engine substantially reduced the overheating. Before anything over 3200 rpms for any amount of time would produce overheating. Now as long as you don't go right back to idle you can maintain 4000 as long as you want..

It has had an issue since before we owned it. It features one new riser(and a burnt up muffler fitting), new RWP and a new block circulation pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2016 at 5:17pm
Okay, here is a video of the bucket test. Looks to be about 45-50 seconds to empty the 5 gallon bucket at a little under 1000 RPMs. Hose is bucket straight to RWP and I also plumbed more clear hoses between RWP and tstat housing and manifolds and tstat housing to observe flow. Thoughts on the RWP suction?

And here is another video running off of my T.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2016 at 11:56am
Update: Well I feel like a total dumb***! First of all never underestimate the power of a digital IR thermometer!!

Ran the boat again on the hose yesterday and hit the motor all over the place with the IR thermometer...Block, risers, manifolds, temp sending unit, etc- and everything seemed perfectly normal. Risers were about 150ish on the port side and 130-140ish on the starboard side. Block and sending unit area never got hotter than about 140 or so. Exhaust manifold ports were all within 5 or so degrees of each other as well (blown head gasket my a**!). And while taking all of these readings the gauge was reading 170-175. Also pulled the tstat out and found an automotive 142 that the shop had put in it...smh!

New PCM 143 tstat is on the way and will be addressing the gauge/sender issue now. And a lake test will be in order to confirm that everything is indeed okay. But it seems things are obviously not as dire as the shop said.

I'm really glad I had doubts about the head gasket diagnosis and posted it on here...And I also want to thank everyone for seriously doubting it as well! That's why CCFan is the best!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2016 at 12:13pm
That thermostat is fine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 1:21am
I made a few measurements last weekend that might help in your diagnosis. I measured the resistance from the temperature sender post to the body of the sender with the wire removed. When the temp gauge was reading 180 deg the sender was 104 ohms. At 170 deg it was 123 ohms and at 160 degrees it was 142 ohms. Each time I read the gauge then removed the wire and made the measurement. Unfortunately I don't know if my gauge is accurate or not but its a starting point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 10:08am
If I'm following desertskier on this you have checked /replaced / tested everything in the cooling system but the sensor itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bb12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 11:24am
Thanks for the info Sean. I don't think it's the sender itself. The shop actually changed out the sender when they were trying to diagnose it. I'm leaning towards a bad ground...I've read up on this a bit and my boat has the infamous "gauges peg when Nav lights are turned on" issue which makes me think weak ground. I read a post about a guy with an '88 that had the exact same symptoms, gauge read 170-190, but he was actually running 155.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 11:52am
Make sure they didn't use any thread sealer on the sender in the manifold, direct metal contact is needed.

Run a jumper ground wire from the battery to your temp gauge and see what happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by gun-driver gun-driver wrote:

If I'm following desertskier on this you have checked /replaced / tested everything in the cooling system but the sensor itself.


I was thinking that making a simple resistance measurement at the sender takes the gauge/wiring out of the equation. If he measures the same resistance as me but is reporting a different temp then he probably has a bad gauge or wiring. But like I said I'm not sure that my gauge is accurate either so this would be just more info to help in the diagnosis.

bb12: On my '89 I ran an additional wire from the negative battery post up to the dash and tied it into the existing grounds. The cleaner way to do it would be to run it from the engine ground but the end result is the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 2:09pm

I've set mine up so I can monitor Oil press, fuel press, and engine temp while under the engine cover. All 3 are mechanical gauges. Also have engine hours, starter / jog switch, and main breaker on the same panel as oil press.

Keep it as original as YOU want it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 3:22pm
I like that. Can you switch between dash gauges and engine gauges?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by desertskier desertskier wrote:

Can you switch between dash gauges and engine gauges?

Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

   All 3 are mechanical gauges.

The mechanicals won't interfere with the electrics. No "switching".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by desertskier desertskier wrote:

I like that. Can you switch between dash gauges and engine gauges?


Dont need to as these are all mechanical gauges. Trust these more than sending unit gauges on dash. I like the idea of being able to start or just jog the engine over from the back instead of trying to stretch from the key.

edit: Thx Pete, ya beat me to it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 7:17pm
Mechanical. Wow. I remember those but I haven't seen one since I installed some in my '69 CJ5.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 8:39pm
Holy crap Duane it's an old ski boat not a top fuel dragster u
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 9:41pm
I agree with the set of mechanicals in the engine area . i have them in my Formula engine area it is just comforting to sometimes open the cover and compare readings.
former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2016 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by gun-driver gun-driver wrote:

Holy crap Duane it's an old ski boat not a top fuel dragster u


That's what I get for crewing on the Nitro Funny Car. Hard to get out of my system. LOL
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