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New to me 78 Tique

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MrMcD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2017 at 11:39pm
I've run an Edelbrock/Carter AFB on three boat engines and liked them a lot. Two 351W's and one 460 Ford. More reliable than the Holley in my experience and easy to fine tune.
If hooked up correctly they are safe.
I know Dyno operators that have tested Holley vs Carter/Edelbrock and the Holley always will have a few more horsepower, usually less than a 10 HP difference but if that is your goal go Holley. I would not throw out a Edelbrock just because of the brand they actually work really well with not much effort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 12:05am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I've run an Edelbrock/Carter AFB on three boat engines and liked them a lot. Two 351W's and one 460 Ford. More reliable than the Holley in my experience and easy to fine tune.
If hooked up correctly they are safe.
I know Dyno operators that have tested Holley vs Carter/Edelbrock and the Holley always will have a few more horsepower, usually less than a 10 HP difference but if that is your goal go Holley. I would not throw out a Edelbrock just because of the brand they actually work really well with not much effort.


A Carter AFB, an Edelbrock and a Weber marine 4 barrel as used by Mercruiser for several years are all remarkably similar. Lots of parts interchange. The Weber and the Edelbrock are practically identical, You'd think that Weber produces the Edelbrock for them or something

You might find one of those Webers on a Malibu with the 5.7 competion ski engine, lots of those sold over the years or on a whole pile of Mercruiser I/O's too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 12:59am
Just had a good night. Took the spark plugs out and put atf in each hole. Man the plugs on the port side are tough to get to. Starboard side was a breeze in comparison. Good news is I saw no cracks, but I hear they would be tiny and I don't know what I'm looking for. So take that for what it's worth. Next step freeze plugs, casting plugs, whatever. Of the 6, 4 were popped out. One had a rubber gasket and one is intact. Not the best of signs. See rust in there, figure we will vacuum. The plugs will be tight to try to get back in. The forward two on both sides are partially blocked by the motor mounts. There is room to get the plug lined up but will be tough to get force on them to knock them in. Jesse will post pics tomorrow. Any tricks? Will put a bar on the engine this weekend. Question, when looking at the engine from the helm, which way to turn the bar on a reverse rotation engine. Looked at the pulley and saw no arrow. Thanks!
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 3:06am
Carter owned the AFB and had all the molds and patents. With the advent of Fuel Injection and quickly declining Carburetor sales Carter partnered with Webber to build the AFB for them. The intent was for Carter to still have the AFB for sale and Webber to produce it for just Carter. Carter did not have a good legal team and Webber was able to loophole around and sell the AFB to Edelbrock who put this carb out everyplace and did very well with it. Later after the agreements expired Webber started selling them under their own name. They are all the same basic carb.
Carter was screwed over on the deal, Edelbrock made a ton of money selling the AFB and Webber did well. There you have it, 3 names, one carb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donald80SN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 11:05am
David,

Ski Dim , aka discount inboard marine in Little Mountain, SC has the solid metal fuel lines. That metal to rubber is not correct. Maybe the metal lines that they sell are for the Holley. They may have others. Use Malibu as a discount code to save 10%.

My guess is they removed the Holley and cut the metal line to make the other carb fit. I could be wrong. Rubber lines do not meet Coast Guard regulations. However, you are unlikely to get checked by Coast Guard, but it is a safety issue anyway.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 11:26am
That won't work Don,those fuel lines are for Holley carbs with the inlet on the front,his Edlebrock has the inlet on the opposite corner out the side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarrell001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 12:06pm
Hi,
I'm Jesse. I bought the other half of this boat with David. I have attached the pictures that David references in his prior post.

Freeze Plugs: Has anyone had success putting all brass plugs back in the motor without removing the engine? I have two ideas.
1. Could I create a metal disk that i can temporarily glue to the plug, and then pry the plug into place. I would be pushing agains the motor mount

2. Can the engine mounts be removed one at a time to make room to tap in the plugs? If yes, How close will the shaft alignment be to it's original location?

Fuel Line: I have attached a picture of the fuel line entering the carburetor. A portion of the line, that is not show in the attached picture appears to be metal covered in rubber and held in place with hose clamps. Could this be true of the section shown in the attached picture?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 12:09pm
Hmmm, keep posting updates. If Frankenotter has his way this thread will be useful in the future... Love that Yellow, that thing is going to be SOOOO COOOLLL!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarrell001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 12:17pm
Hopefully these images work....





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 12:29pm
David,
I also suggest getting the rubber expansion plugs for the core holes. Get them in and then get the engine running to check making sure the block isn't cracked. Don't worry about the brass at this time. If the engine is good, then removing one mount at a time is fine but I'd also get a bottle jack between the stringer and the exhaust manifold. Alignment should be checked but it should be checked anyway. Barring the engine over, direction really doesn't matter but, go clockwise otherwise you'll just loosen the bolt on the crank!.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 1:09pm
I agree with Pete, use rubber plugs to find out if this engine is intact. I have known guys that ran with rubber plugs for years with no issue. Brass is better but at this time you want to know if your block is still good. With this many plugs popped out the odds of the block not being damaged are small. Sorry but I have seen blocks cracked with only one plug pushed out.   
You can put the plugs in and then cap off all the coolant lines and pressurize the block with air to test it.   Don't use more than 35 PSI of air pressure or you may create new leaks by blowing out your water pump or thermostat gaskets.
I did this to my brothers 460 Ford last year searching for leaks. It was not hard to plug all the exit holes and hook up an air line with a ball check valve to allow shutting the air off. Once pressurized test your connections and plugs with soap and water spray. Leaks will show up quickly. Patch the connection leaks then run pressure up to 35 PSI close the ball check valve and wait several hours.   If you have a cracked block or leaks the pressure will reduce quickly. If it holds 35 PSI you are good to go!
PS: when you bleed down the air do it slowly. I opened the ball check on mine the first time I used it and blew dirty block rusted water 20 feet across my garage. You only make that mistake once. What a mess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jarrell001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 1:12pm
It is a space issue. We can't get the rubber plugs to slide anywhere close to the hole because of the engine mounts are in the way. I would slant there is about 1" of clearance. The rubber plugs we were able to find are about 2" thick. If we have to take of the engine mounts, would we be better off to go ahead with the brass plugs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 1:23pm
I think we used a combination of both plugs. We had 4 or 5 that popped out including by the engine mounts. . You don't have to get the plugs in perfectly like your going to be using the boat. Just enough to hold the water. Maybe you can tap a metal plug at an angle and it will seal well enough? That's what we did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 2:43pm
Probably gotta support the engine and pull the mount. Might as well put a brass plug in if you're going through that trouble, in case the block gets a clean bill of health.

Before you consider keeping the edelbrock, you need to confirm it's a marine carb. Then you will likely need a $70 fuel line (or bend your own) as the $15 hard line that's readily available is Holley specific. Edelbrocks can also be sensitive to installed angle, plus it's likely quite a bit larger than the 450cfm 302's came with (believe 600cfm is the smallest marine eddy). Lots of potential stumbling blocks, which is why I'd swap a Holley on and call it done!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 2:44pm
since the motor mounts are in the way of installing the core/casting plugs, its not such a bad idea to block up the motor and remove the motor mount while installing, then replace.   I am sure that the alignment will need to be checked on the motor anyway, and while the mounts are out, you can loosen them up and anti-seize them in preparation for the alignment.    I also like to put a little sealant on the casting plugs before installing them, it helps if the block is pitted in that area.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 3:56pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 4:08pm
If water is spraying all over, alignment isn't going to stop that. What ever plugs you choose to use, get them in and fire it up. If it's good then take the time to align it. If it's not you didn't waste any thing to align 'cuz it's coming out!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

If water is spraying all over, alignment isn't going to stop that. What ever plugs you choose to use, get them in and fire it up. If it's good then take the time to align it. If it's not you didn't waste any thing to align 'cuz it's coming out!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2017 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

If water is spraying all over, alignment isn't going to stop that. What ever plugs you choose to use, get them in and fire it up. If it's good then take the time to align it. If it's not you didn't waste any thing to align 'cuz it's coming out!

Bingo

I certainly agree but 20 minutes ago, Jesse was doing a search for "alignment" so I thought I'd be helpful and post a link. Do you think he may be planning ahead?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2017 at 4:45pm
Going to turn the engine tomorrow. Should we remove the valve covers and lube the valve springs, carrier, lifters and cams?
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Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2017 at 5:19pm
Yes definitely. The owners manual for Holman Moody actually tells you to do that before initial startup after storage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2017 at 7:02pm
Running 3 years ago? I wouldn't bother.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fabcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2017 at 6:49pm
Looks like a very clean boat to start with, good luck with the motor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2017 at 9:23pm
Ok, we only had 2 hrs but got a ways.
-turned the engine with a bar...no problem. smooth.
-checked the waterpump. while the impeller was a little disformed, it was plyable and decent looking. We plan to replace. Was a jabsco model 17410-0001. Looked it up online and found the impeller easy. But the gaskets that come with they new ones don't look like my pump.
-hooked up the battery and turned the engine. videos coming soon. not as strong as we would like but will look forward to hearing your thoughts. Jesse has the video coming later. Our friend brought a deep cycle battery which Jesse and I replaced with a proper starting batt.
-All of the gauges moved when batt was hooked up. And starter spun well but had a hitch in its step.
-We are well on our way to replacing all of the casting plugs. May be there now that I left (jesse had one more to do when I left.)
-We were testing compression but are hoping the ATF in the cylinders was hurting our readings. May have ruined my tester. Couldn't get a good read. Up down, up down and again. Thoughts???
-I was washing my hands when I heard the boat fire up...good news, but we didn't have water at the time so we shut her down ASAP and then disconnected the fire to the distributor.

So, plan is to fire it up on the hose ASAP and see what we have. Excited, but figure there is something in the block not quite right (would be amazing otherwise).

Plan is to start her up, let her run at idle in order to get the ATF out of the cylinders and then test the compression (if my tester is still good). Thoughts????   Obviously if there is water spewing, we know we are screwed. But anything else? We know she will fire. Compression is the next game, but I fear we have screwed up my tester with ATF getting shot in it?????
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2017 at 2:00am
You said it popped a plug in 2013, so your brief turn over was the first time it spun in at least 3 years, maybe longer. You said the oil looked ok, but the engine has to be pretty dry. You already spun it over with the spark plugs in so maybe you got some oil flow, but not sure how long you spun it for. Priming the engine would be a good step, but maybe that cat's out of the bag already. It would be nice to have some oil flow before you start it. If you already did this and I missed it I'll apologize in advance. If not a proper priming then spinning it over with the starter with all the spark plugs out is another way to build oil pressure with minimum stress on the rotating parts.

You can check compression later once you see if you have a block issue or not. If things go well you can run it for a while, then go back and check compression.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waldo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2017 at 6:44pm
Love that Yellow.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2017 at 8:53pm
Hey, good progress it runs!
Since you already started it I would go to the next step and hook up your water supply and fresh gas and fire it up. Watch the oil pressure like a hawk. You should have good oil pressure in a running engine in less than 5 seconds.
Keep the RPM low at first, verify oil pressure and listen for any odd noises/knocks in your engine.   Listen to the exhaust to make sure you have 8 smoothly hitting cylinders.
This check should be done in the first minute of run time.
If all is good I would bump the RPM to 2,000 and keep it there for 5 minutes while watching oil pressure and temperature close.
Make sure the choke opens properly after warm up.
Make sure you thermostat opens, should open around 140 degree's and the temp should not rise from this temp..
Verify your charging system is working.
If it runs well and you still have no odd noises do a water test and see what it does under a load. Run it as long as you wish on this water test but if you are in a river go upstream!   If it dies it is nice to have the current take you home rather than farther away.   The water test will properly load your piston rings. If all is good they will not need to seat in. If you had minor cylinder rust from the boat sitting for 3 years the water test will fully load pressure on the piston rings and they will either seal right a way or not. After this water test if all is good I would change the oil again to remove any rust that may have mixed with your oil. Remember rust can form just by pulling moisture out of the air inside an engine.
If your block has a crack that allows a slow leak into your boat, and not inside your engine you could live with it.   Boats have a constant supply of cool water so a small leak will not cause you an overheat but might make you run the bilge pump once in a while until you repair the engine block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2017 at 9:48pm
All plugs are in. Think tomorrow night may be on the hose.

How do you make sure the choke opens properly?
And the thermostat?
Where do we test the charging system. Just test at the batt and look for 13-14 volts to see that the alternator is turning power (more than when it is off)?

Our electronics are showing some issue. May be a ground issue? We were trying all of the switches tonight and they all worked (bilge, blower, horn, nav). Then all of a sudden they didn't, nor did the ignition switch. We got a meter on them and there was 10-11 volts but they wouldn't work. We jiggled it a bit and they started working again. something loose or a bad ground?

Thanks for all of your collective insight thus far.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2017 at 9:57pm
Check choke by removing flame arrestor & looking.

Thermostat, if you don't have confidence in the dash gauge, then maybe take it out & put it in a pan of water on the stove. Use a cooking thermometer to see at what temp it opens up.

One could buy a $15 IR thermometer. Or just feel the block to see if it is warm to the touch

Voltage should be 13-14 V with engine running. Any hot lead connected to alternator output should register this.

Good luck!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2017 at 12:17am
We started her up tonight. Seems like good news. Videos follow. The choke set. The alternator worked. Hooked to a hose only at first, then started. Only leaks were drips and were from the following, the water pump gasket, the gaskets on the rear of the exhaust manifolds and one of the hose clamps. Then we sucked ~4qts of oil out and plan to fill and change filter Thurs. Then splash on Sat. Video 1 is of hose only. Video 2 is of idle. Video 3 is of 2000 RPM. Note that the temp gauge did start to rise once we cut off the video so that seems to work too. Ran for about 10min. Let me know what you engine gurus think of the sounds. We have a tough time to hear if it is missing, or knocking, etc. We can siphon out old gas and add new but it seems to run fine. Thoughts on regular or premium gas?

Video 1

Video 2 - Idle

Video 3 - 2000RPM
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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