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New to me 78 Tique

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KENO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2017 at 10:18pm
It's odd that you think it's on the trailer

Dave'(samudj01) has the videos and the problem.under load on the water

Shadow in the post before yours was telling what his fuel pump issue was ......on the water and then on the trailer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2017 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

We didn't do anything different to the choke on purpose. Got it back together and thought it was correct. We were wrong obviously. Have the carb at home hoping to reevaluate the choke tomorrow night. I believe our only issue with the choke is spring tension when cold.


I think you might find that air flow past the choke butterfly will want to keep it open not cause it to go closed.

This would be due to where the pivot point is and the amount of blade on one side of the pivot compared to the other. Kinda hard to explain but if all the linkage was disconnected with nothing to control the butterfly, air flow would keep it open.

In other words, I don't think the choke is your problem, but that's just me thinking
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2017 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by shadow shadow wrote:

I replaced the fuel pump and now the fuel pressure is steady at 6 psi I think the fuel pump was the problem all along,


Made this wedge plate for mine and the QFT carb sits perfectly level now. Also replaced the fuel pump too. Had the exact same problems yours had, bad pressure. Now all is OK.


Keep it as original as YOU want it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-21-2017 at 9:40pm
As per usual you guys were right. The choke is not the issue. But we did fix the choke which was simple. Went to lake today thinking we had this whipped.

I am so frustrated bc I know we are close and it is something small. The secondaries just aren't opening when running. When turned off, the throttle cable opens the secondaries just fine in forward and reverse and in reverse with the neutral pulled. But under power they don't open. Could it have something to do with the weighted butterfly that is vacuum operated. It moves freely when touched. Is there a way it could be on backwards, seemed only to go on one way and seems to work.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-21-2017 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

As per usual you guys were right. The choke is not the issue. But we did fix the choke which was simple. Went to lake today thinking we had this whipped.

I am so frustrated bc I know we are close and it is something small. The secondaries just aren't opening when running. When turned off, the throttle cable opens the secondaries just fine in forward and reverse and in reverse with the neutral pulled. But under power they don't open. Could it have something to do with the weighted butterfly that is vacuum operated. It moves freely when touched. Is there a way it could be on backwards, seemed only to go on one way and seems to work.


The easy part is probably telling you why the secondaries act like they do.

You have a mechanical linkage that physically starts opening the secondaries when the primaries are 65% open and the primaries and secondaries both reach full open at the same time.

That doesn't mean a lot though because of the secondary air valves on the weighted shaft.

They only open due to air flow and will only open enough to provide what the engine needs.even if the secondary throttle plates are wide open.

Just like a Holley with vacuum secondaries, the secondary air valves on your Edelbrock will never open if you rev the engine in neutral You can rev it to the moon but there's not enough load.

Under load moving the boat they only open far enough to provide the air the engine needs. Your stock 302 at 4500 rpm or so will only use about 350 cfm of air. Most of that comes from the primaries and the secondaries won't flow much at all since this is a 600 cfm carburetor. The air valves will hardly be open at full throttle

It ran good before the rebuild/wedge installation so I still think it's one or the other causing your issues now, the hard part is knowing what though.

You could look at the exploded view of the carburetor in the previously linked manual to see how they go in. I'm reasonably sure you can't put them in wrong.

I think I'd take the top off the carburetor while it's on the boat and see where the gas level is in the bowls and maybe tweak that depending on what you find.

Not a lot of help, but hopefully an easy to understand explanation of the secondaries



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 12:28am
That helps my knowledge for sure. But the mechanical secondaries aren't opening under load. I can't figure out why. With the throttle pegged they should be wide open. And they are when there is no load. I am happy to understand now not to expect the vacuum secondaries to move much due to my engine being a 302. So you can run it with the air horn off and the bowls open? That would take the metering rods out of play. My next move was going to be to remove the wedge from the equation.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 1:11am
I just meant to look at the bowl levels after it's off. I wouldn't run it like that though.

I think as long as you remove one thing from the equation it should tell you something.

Right now I'm a little baffled on the mechanical secondary butterfly valves though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 8:53am
Hi Dave

I think I'm maybe not so baffled anymore

I think you need to make sure all the choke linkage is right and that the choke is FULLY open when the engine is running, otherwise the secondaries won't open.

Sounds crazy but I think it may keep the primaries from going open enough to make the secondaries open through the mechanical link.

When you're fiddling with it with the engine off you might be holding the choke open to look down the primaries and things work right, but with the engine running you're probably not holding it open and it may be almost but not quite fully open.

I'll be playing with a friends Weber on a Mercruiser (they're pretty much carbon copies of each other except the Weber doesn't use an electric choke) later this week and should be able to see how the choke accomplishes this, but for now that's what I think your issue with the secondaries is.

Notice I used the word "think" a lot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Hi Dave

I think I'm maybe not so baffled anymore

I think you need to make sure all the choke linkage is right and that the choke is FULLY open when the engine is running, otherwise the secondaries won't open.

Sounds crazy but I think it may keep the primaries from going open enough to make the secondaries open through the mechanical link.

When you're fiddling with it with the engine off you might be holding the choke open to look down the primaries and things work right, but with the engine running you're probably not holding it open and it may be almost but not quite fully open.

I'll be playing with a friends Weber on a Mercruiser (they're pretty much carbon copies of each other except the Weber doesn't use an electric choke) later this week and should be able to see how the choke accomplishes this, but for now that's what I think your issue with the secondaries is.

Notice I used the word "think" a lot


Hi Again Dave

I put my eyes and hands on a brand new Edelbrock this morning and what I said above is true..

There's a linkage setup directly behind the electric choke housing that Rube Goldberg would have been proud to design.Look at the left side of the carburetor to see where the linkage first starts.

If the choke isn't fully open.It keeps the secondary butterflies from opening

You can fiddle with it and see how it works and get things adjusted so the choke opens fully.with all the linkages hooked up and then the secondaries should work or..............
If you were so inclined, it wouldn't be hard to make it so that linkage never got in your way again



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 4:08pm
Here's a picture pirated from somewhere on the internet

It's the interaction of the 2 levers, linkages down low directly behind the choke housing that are causing your secondary problem. Edit..... there are 2 levers on the front shaft and the innermost one is what controls the secondaries thru a linkage and is affected by the choke

Maybe I should say aft of the choke housing to keep things in Pete's nautical lingo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 9:30pm
Think we have the linkage correct. See pics below (best I have that I took yesterday, first shows linkage and second shows choke open, both taken after the issue occurred on the water). Is there a chance that at full throttle the choke is somehow closing a bit and preventing the secondaries from opening, I guess that could be the case. I need to take the doghouse out so I can run full throttle and see carb.





Next items to try:
-Doghouse off and run full to see if I can see the issue, if not;
-Remove wedge, if that doesn't fix;
-Go back to drawing board, take apart and put back together

Edelbrock thinks the timing needs to be advanced to 14 degrees TDC to have enough vacuum to open the weighted secondary butterflies.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 10:14pm
In the first picture the linkage as shown will prevent the secondaries from opening.

The little arm on the right has to drop down(rotate CCW) so the arm on the left is free to rotate clockwise and the secondaries can then open. Right now they're contacting each other.

If both pictures were taken with the choke fully open, you have some linkage issues.

Maybe I can get some pictures tomorrow of the linkage positioned to allow secondary operation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 10:35pm
I look forward to the pics. I think my first pic looks just like the stock pic in your previous post. When the throttle moves the little arm on the right gets out of the way so the secondaries can open, no??
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 10:37pm
What's your timing set at now?

Did it get a TRBenj tune up at White Lake?

10 degrees BTDC at idle and 34-36 at 3000 to 3500 would treat you real well. It looks like you have a Prestolite with the clip down cap and as long as the weights move freely and both springs are intact you should be able to get these numbers.

I'd get the carb adjusted so the secondaries can open before doing anything else.

Remember, it ran good at high speed before the spacer/rebuild of the carb (other than flooding when off)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 10:59pm
We set the timing but it had slop- not returning all the way to base position. Need to free up the weights and springs (and verify all are present) and recheck base and total.

Carb was dumping gas, throttle bracket couldn't achieve a proper idle position... that plus the oversized cfm rating made the edelbrock a less than optimal path forward, was my input. Lots of guys on here who can tune a Holley but I haven't gotten my afb certification yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 11:18pm
We fixed the throttle plate so that it returns firmly seated in neutral. And I checked that the throttle cable throw was long enough that it would definitely open the carb throttle all the way.

I am hesitant to open the distributor to clean the weights and springs until I get the carb issue fixed unless you think they are directly related. I don't have experience in getting the points and timing set back correct other than watching Tim once and staying in a Holiday Inn Express one time. When I do clean them, do I just use spray in carb cleaner and a toothbrush or take the weights and springs out to soak and clean out the dist cup?
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2017 at 11:29pm
The distributor has to work properly or you can't finish your tune. It makes a huge difference in drive ability to have the distributor work properly.
The weights can be freed up pretty easy. It is normally rust that makes them sticky.
Sometimes a spring will rust out and need to be replaced but most I have seen are just rusted from the moisture they are exposed to in a Marine environment.
We fixed a buddy's boat while on vacation on the water. We did not have much for tools or available lubricants. We pulled the dip stick, used drops of oil from the dipstick to lubricate his weights and get it running to finish our vacation. It worked.
Not ideal but it worked.   This guy never maintains his boat so our emergency repair that was supposed to only be for the vacation trip ended up keeping him running another two years till he sold the boat and that boat ran really well. I know, I skied behind it and drove it many times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2017 at 12:29am
Always start with ignition and then move to the carb imho.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2017 at 9:06am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Always start with ignition and then move to the carb imho.


Well glad I asked about the timing, knowing that info I'd get the distributor straightened out but in this case get the linkage adjusted so the secondaries can physically open first since you know you have that problem for sure. Somewhere along the way you said you weren't needing or using the choke so make it go full open, make the linkage arm drop out of the way and wire it so it can't move, then your secondaries should work.

I'm figurin' Tim has you at 34 to 36 degrees total advance on the distributor with his adjustments, also figurin he'll pop back in here and say what it was set at.

After the secondaries can work, then like Tim said on to the distributor for sure before doing anything else.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2017 at 9:29am
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

I look forward to the pics. I think my first pic looks just like the stock pic in your previous post. When the throttle moves the little arm on the right gets out of the way so the secondaries can open, no??


Yes but.................It can only drop out of the way if the choke is open. It's all part of that Rube Goldberg linkage setup
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2017 at 10:59am
Add me to the "fix timing first" chorus you are hearing. The nice thing about ignition is you can set it precisely by the numbers and know it's right, then move on to fuel. Don't be concerned about setting timing and dwell, as you probably observed from seeing Tim do it it's not difficult, you may need to borrow the light/meter or maybe get a friend to help you out but you really want to get that done first.

Timing that is off, distributor weights that are not freed up, can definitely cause bogging down at high rpm like you are experiencing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2017 at 3:01pm
Hi Dave

I deleted what I had here because it was confusing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-26-2017 at 3:27pm
Hi Dave

After a little playing around with a Weber marine 4 barrel this week I can say that the choke definitely affects the secondaries ability to open.

Even went back and looked at the Edelbrock to compare.

Make that choke go full open and your secondaries should work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-26-2017 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

. When I do clean them, do I just use spray in carb cleaner and a toothbrush or take the weights and springs out to soak and clean out the dist cup?

If you take them out you'll be able to clean everything.

To take them out you'll have to remove the advance plate assembly with the cam that operates the points.

It's not hard to do as long as you remove the little spring clip in the center of the shaft

After that the assembly will lift right off but you need to note how it's oriented because you can also install it 180 degrees out and then when you put the rotor back on, it's 180 degrees out and your engine won't run.

In your Prestolite you should find one heavy spring that looks stretched out on the ends and looks like it won't do much, (thats normal, it has no effect till higher RPMs) and one light one that has tension on it all the time.

Here's a top view of the advance assembly. The little spring clip is in the midle of the shaft and may be covered by a piece of felt that you have to pull out to get to the clip

Those are normal looking springs in the picture too other than being a little rusty.


The second picture shows a beat up heavy spring which usually happens when you try to get the springs off without removing the plate. You can do it but it's not real easy
It also shows the shaft with the felt removed and the clip is visible but really fuzzy.


Do it in a Holiday Inn Express parking lot and you'll be fine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2017 at 9:10am
Last night we got back to the boat after two weeks. Put her in and fired up. Took dog house off. Ran in neutral and verified that secondaries are opening. Ran under load and verified same. Shot with timing light. ~12 degrees at 600rpm. Off the chart at 2000 and above. We then marked 30 and 36 to verify it goes off the chart. Sure does. Around 1700 rpm it goes way up. So we took the cap off and inspected the weights and springs. Jesse has pics but I don't. The weights are nice and free but the springs are suspect. The small one is very stretched out on one coil. The large spring is so loose that it has play (not tight) when I advance the weights fully with my fingers. So it seems the small spring is our only tension. Hoping that advance auto has springs tomorrow. Put it back and set points at .018 on a feeler and she runs into the 4000's on the tach. Timing came to about 8 degrees with the resetting of the points. That was at 11:00 so not much running after that. Just once under load to feel it go up over 4000. Plus I think I read it isn't good for the engine to be run so advanced for long. Correct? Help us with next steps. Springs then timing sound right. Spring suggestions?
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2017 at 10:08am
They sure look screwed up to me too.

Make sure & get correct presotlite springs, I think Ski dim sells them if you can't find them locally (probably not a big demand for them).

I wouldn't run your boat until you get this fixed, it could cause engine problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2017 at 12:08pm
Those pictures aren't Dave's distributor, I put them up a while ago to show him what the springs looked like. You should read the captions that are with the pictures

The first picture shows decent springs, the big one has slop till higher RPM's. It's built that way.

The second picture is of a screwed up set of springs, especially the big one.

I'm not sure that anybody(including White Lake and DIM still has the springs). They seem to have disappeared from their websites.

Sounds like there will be pictures coming
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2017 at 2:17pm
Oops, should have waited for the coffee before posting . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2017 at 6:48pm
Hi Dave

I think I might know someone with some springs that work for your distributor.

Check your PM in box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-11-2017 at 12:56am
Thanks! Will look forward to putting on springs next weekend.
78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351
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