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How many RPMs??

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Mr.Green View Drop Down
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    Posted: July-05-2006 at 6:20pm
I just bought a 1989 Sport Nautique. At full throttle it says 4000 RPM and 38 MPH. A dude pacing me on his sit down jet ski said we were doing 44 MPH. A buddy at work says his Malibu does over 5000 RPM at around 44 MPH. I have a 3 blade stainless prop, I need to check the specs. It seems to pull skiers and tubers out just fine and is running fine. This doesnt all add up. What am I missing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffnit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2006 at 7:30pm
The first thing I'd do is check to see what prop you have. I had a similar problem on my 89 SN and after replacing the existing prop, it was a night and day difference.
Danny





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr.Green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2006 at 8:56pm
I dont seem to have much of a problem though. So your saying I should go to a prop that will rev to 5000 RPMs and loose top end speed? Or can I get a little of both if I get the motor to the right RPM? What is the optimum RPM?? I will check the prop tomorrow.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLBC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2006 at 9:41pm
It is also possible that your speedo is off a tad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffnit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 7:57am
I agree with PLBC.
Call SKIDIM's tech line. Give them the specs of your current prop and they can tell you what range (rpm & speed) that prop should run.
The only reason I was looking was to find and alternate prop, dinged mine, and didn't want to wait to have it repaired. In my case, it turns out the prop I had was too large. The new prop gave me a much getter whole shot, punchy acceleration at alternate speeds, and gained about 800 rpm's @WOT. Before, the boat ran around 46 WOT, with the new prop it's at least the same, if not a little better. FWIW, I got the OJ XMP. Wish I'd remembered the GPS for an accurate top end note.
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79nautique View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 8:46am
mine turns 5500-6000 rpm depending on the prop I have on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 882001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 8:55am
buy an acme 542. that boat ill come alive. it will still only run 46ish at 4600 rpms. but will get there in half the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 9:54am
He won't want a 542 if he's got the 1.23 tranny.

Mr. Green, it sounds like your prop has more pitch than your motor can turn. You should be closer to 4400RPM @ 42MPH for top speed with a stock 240 horse 351w.

Get some dimensions off your prop and the ID tag off the motor (on the intake manifold) to figure out which transmission you have and we can go from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 10:03am
My boat will turn 6000 too. (If it's out of the water.)

Has anyone else noticed a drop in power from the new Ethanol? I am going to check my timing to see if something changed but I am suspecting the drop in power comes from the same problem that has caused my fuel compsumption to skyrocket on my Jeep.

I have noticed that my max RPMs on the '68 have just taken a 500RPM drop for an undetermined reason. Anyone else experence an RPM drop lately?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 10:05am
ethanol has been in your gas for years at a 10% level if you are using the e-85 then that's a mistake and you should stop using it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 10:12am
Actually, parts of Texas just got Ethanol. There are a few counties in Texas that are classified as polution zones and they have had Ethanol for quite a few years. I figured the rest of the country was the same way. Most counties in Texas still do not have vapor recovery systems on their gas pumps - only the counties in the "polution zones" (usually the counties with the large metropolitan cities).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 10:19am
Ethanol has been in gas since the 80's and you don't have to have the vapor recovery systems for the gas to contain it. There are very few places I've been that have the vapor systems. California is about the only place that it is everyware and has been since the 80's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 10:24am
BTW, while we're (I'm) discussing Texas, the state just raised our speed limit to 80.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim_In_Houston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2006 at 10:30am
Yeh, we just got Ethanol locally. (Bummer) I don't think all of the stations have it. But it may be getting difficult to find gas without it. I haven't seen e85 yet but I've heard about it.

Gas milage on Ehtanol has definatly taken a nose dive, around 10% at least. "Everyone's" talking about it around these parts.

If all you've had is 10% Ehtanol gas since the 80s you wouldn't know what I am talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr.Green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-10-2006 at 8:53pm
OK, it is a 123:1 trans and the prop says 374?? It has like a backwards 7 in front of the 374, mabe a T not stamped in correctly?? Anyway, you would think I would know more about thes propellar thingys considering I used to work at a Nautique dealer way back in the day. The boat is only turning 4000 RPM and doing 37 (on my speedo) on a good day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 10:09am
Its tough to say for sure if the prop is the problem since we dont know much about it- but it certainly could be.

Id check your timing first. Make sure base timing is ~10 degrees and that it advances to ~30 by 3k RPM or so.

Id also check the carb- has it ever been rebuilt?

If youve got a little money to spend, a new prop wouldnt hurt. The new Acme's are a world better than the older props. Even if your old prop is not part of the problem, you will see much better performance and smoothness with the Acme.

For the record, I have the same motor/tranny combo as you. When I got the boat it ran 41 MPH @ 4200RPM with an OJ 4-blade. I replaced the ignition and set the timing and got 42 MPH @ 4400RPM. I switched to an Acme #470 and now run a strong 43 MPH @ 4600RPM. The holeshot is much improved as well.

It also wouldnt hurt to set your speedos- theres no way to tell how accurate they are until you do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr.Green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:33pm
Like I said, I was clocked by someone else that said we were doing 44 but I dont believe his speedo either. I will keep digging into this. Thanks for the info, keep it coming. I take it the prop info I posted isnt the right info??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:59pm
I wouldnt trust his speedo either. I dont think your boat is doing 44 when youre only turning 4000RPM. Most likely its 39-40.

I still dont know much about your prop, I couldnt find the part number searching the internet. As far as I know CC never put any SS props on their boats, so it is safe to assume its not stock. The exact dimensions are anyone's guess. Also, performance will vary from one brand of prop to another, even if they share the same dimensions. My guess is that your current prop is holding your boat back from performing its best.

FYI, if you ever hit the prop on anything in the water, a SS prop is much more likely to damage your strut, driveshaft, etc than a nibral prop. The nibral is much softer and will absorb some of the blow, saving costly repairs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 2:03pm
nibral isn't that much softer than SS they are almost the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 2:23pm
Mr. Green,

I've spent quite a bit of time in a couple of 1990 SNs, as well as my own 98SN and 2001 SAN. In their stock configurations, all ran at about 4600 to 4800 rpms on the top. I know some of these guys get more rpms, but some of the motors are older and others have made significant mods. Just a point of reference as you uncover this mystery. BKH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 2:57pm
BKH is right, but a stock 240 horse 351w in good tune should turn 4400 RPM with a stock-ish (~14x16) prop.

79, I dont know if I agree with you. This was posted on PN about a year ago:

Originally posted by ST ST wrote:

Here are more complete specs for Nibral and stainless:

Nibral:
====

Tensile: 95 ksi
Yield: 50 ksi
Elongation: 10%
Brinell Hardness: 190
Modulus of elasticity: 17,500 ksi
Modulus of rigidity: 6400 ksi

T-316 Stainless:
==========

Tensile: 85 ksi
Yield: 35 ksi
Elongation: 30%
Brinell Hardness: 200
Modulus of elasticity: 30,000 ksi
Modulus of rigidity: 11,000 ksi

Nibral is stronger and more brittle than stainless but it seems that it is more "springy." Notice the difference in the moduli of elasticity and rigidity. Stainless is almost twice as hard to bend or stretch as Nibral.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 3:13pm
the yield is the big difference, that means if I remember correctly, that the SS will yield well before Nibral, tensil is when it breaks yield is when it moves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr.Green Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 3:24pm
Thats kinda correct but not totally, you can bend metal with out yielding it.

Anyway, its not a stock prop, but it was confusing to me that it would have less RPMs AND less speed. I would have thought that a prop with more pitch would be faster but with less hole shot and lower full throttle RPMs, like a higher gear in a car (lower numericaly) . But I know there is more to defining a boat prop than there is a gear in a car. I am beginning to think it may be engine related, but still not sure. It starts and runs fine but I am beginning to wonder. Why cant I find the right numbers on my prop?? Maybe they are on the surface behind the nut...???...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 3:26pm
Yes, on my prop, the numbers are on the surface behind the nut. BKH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 3:39pm
Quote:
I would have thought that a prop with more pitch would be faster but with less hole shot and lower full throttle RPMs, like a higher gear in a car (lower numericaly) .

This is somewhat true but as you alluded to its a bit more complicated than that. If you cannot reach the speed during which your engine produces its max horsepower because it takes more torque to get there than you have at your peak rpm then too steep a pitch prop will just all around suck, not good for top speed, not good for hole shot, not bad for gas mileage but the inevitable engine damage that will result from the overloading will wipe out that savings eventually..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:12pm
BKH is right, check and see if there are any numbers on the prop.

Like Joe said, it is possible that your prop has more pitch than your motor can turn. A higher pitch prop will result in more speed at a given RPM... IF your motor has enough power to turn it that fast.

Your problem could still very well be engine-related. Most likely the prop was designed for use on our boats- there arent that many other ski boats turning RH props. It could just be a bad performing prop though.

79, youre right, as is Mr. Green. The yield strength is how much force it takes to deform the metal permanantly. The modulus of elasticity can be used to predict the load at which the metal will buckle under compression. I am not a mechanical engineer, so I cant say which property is more applicable to a prop hitting an underwater object.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:18pm
I am a mechanical engineer and I can reasonably say your screwed either way don't hit stuff with your prop, and if you have to hit stuff with your prop hit soft stuff and hit it slowly...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

I am a mechanical engineer and I can reasonably say your screwed either way don't hit stuff with your prop, and if you have to hit stuff with your prop hit soft stuff and hit it slowly...


Based upon that elegant and poignant analysis, I'm guessing maybe BSME S.U.N.Y.

BTW - I tell everyone that I let my engineering degree expire 20 years ago, but even I can understand this excellent engineering advice BKH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

I am a mechanical engineer and I can reasonably say your screwed either way don't hit stuff with your prop, and if you have to hit stuff with your prop hit soft stuff and hit it slowly...


Haha I like your reasoning! Ive hit stuff with my prop and I agree with your recommendation!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:38pm
Modulus of elasticity tells you how much it will deform given a load. Yields aren't comparable because even though nibral his a higher yield, it will give a lot more than the stainless.
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