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kelpfish View Drop Down
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    Posted: March-28-2017 at 9:55pm
Good evening, kicking around the idea of putting a short block together for this winter project. Was looking around and there some good kits by eagle and scat to turn stock 351w into a 393 or 408 from what I read only change crankshaft out. So I call scat there about 20 miles from me here in calif. Guy tells me that gonna cost me 5oo extra to make a reverse rotation shaft so the shaft is 400 but gonna cost 900 to have it reverse. That's kinda bad math. Does anyone make a stroker crank that is reverse rotation? Or could I polish out the hash marks or use a speedi seal looking for options?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-28-2017 at 10:23pm
I used a speedi sleeve on my RR. Would they make one up with no hash marks at all,it would eliminate one manufacturing step. Do a search for JoeinNY and his stroker, he built a 408 but uses a LH with a PCM trans which changes prop rotation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-28-2017 at 10:38pm
393 uses 351 rods and 302 pistons IIRC.

Maybe take a step back and tell us what you have and what you're trying to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kelpfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 12:42am
OK   lmao my motor has 1200 hr on it. Was going to start gathering parts for this winter and go thru the motor when I park her for the season. Being that me and friends are not getting any smaller thought a few extra cubic inches would not hurt. Was thinking a 3.850 stroker crank, H beam rods and a set of trick flow forged pistons motor will be at .030 most likely. already have a set of gt40 heads that will be going back on it. now the only concern I have is getting a stroker crank for a fair price.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 6:50am
Originally posted by kelpfish kelpfish wrote:

and a set of trick flow forged pistons motor will be at .030 most likely


IMO, forged pistons and H-beam aftermarket rods are not necessary You won't be turning the RPM nor have the compression to warrant them.
That said, I have a set of Sealed Power + .040 pistons with 5 hours on them that are yours (or anyone elses) for the postage. I had to go .060 and they are just setting in a box.
Save your $$ from the piston/rod combo and spend it on a nice intake and a Quick Fuel carb setup. Mild port polish and port matching will give more results per $$.   My $.02
   (not trying to thread jack, just trying to help you out w/ no personal gain.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 9:23am
gt40 heads will be a choke point on 393-408ci... power may taper off after 4000rpm.

What hull do you have and how do you use the boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 11:07am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

gt40 heads will be a choke point on 393-408ci... power may taper off after 4000rpm.


For aluminum heads (save 40 pounds and make plenty of power) you may want to look at these. The first set are by Flo Tek based in SW Indiana. I have a set of these and they are nice.
eBay item number:131483374036

First time I have seen these so don't know any history.
eBay item number:182295760986

I can post or send pics of the Flo Teks if needed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 11:23am
Duane, I think we'd all be more interested in hearing how they perform!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 11:31am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Duane, I think we'd all be more interested in hearing how they perform!



Here you go.     For our RPM range Flo Teks are a good value
SBF alum head comparison
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 11:45am
I mean in an application similar to ours... I think you're the only person who has opted for them thus far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 11:59am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

I mean in an application similar to ours... I think you're the only person who has opted for them thus far.


Hopefully I will test them this weekend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-29-2017 at 1:24pm
Watching Craigs list I have seen several Ford small block AFR Heads sell used for around $1,000. I would trust the used AFR before some of the off brands. I was tempted to grab a set for my GT40 but it runs so well I decided not to mess with it. I keep watching trying to get a set of AFR small block Chevy heads for a project. Chevy heads are harder to come by on Craigs list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kelpfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 12:18am
Are They fordged or cast learned my lesson long ago ? if they forged love to have them. Let me know. And I know I don't need to over build it but will be boys boat someday and going to make bullet proof since he better at computer games than turning a wrench.    Can text me or call em Andrew 714 721 9237    asilinsky@yahoo.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 2:03am
Forged or cast applies to Pistons, can't say I ever read that about heads?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kelpfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 2:21am
was talking about the pistons he was offering up but think there cast which are fine but I going to run forged spend a couple bucks now save a few later. Also the kit I was talking about is really affordable for the crank piston and rods plus bearings and rings was 1500 don't think that to bad for a engine I hope outlives me :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Originally posted by kelpfish kelpfish wrote:

and a set of trick flow forged pistons motor will be at .030 most likely


IMO, forged pistons and H-beam aftermarket rods are not necessary You won't be turning the RPM nor have the compression to warrant them.
.)


I don’t know Duane I don’t think we have enough information to know about that. Compression comes at you quick with these ford strokers. It would depend on the pistons and head chamber size how much he ends up with but with the gt40ps I have sent more high dollar pistons to their grave than I care to admit with my 408 stroker.   I have been running custom pistons and MLS gaskets to lower my compression for the last couple years, that along with 93 octane and a super conservative tune, and a relatively low load prop has kept me happy.   
Mostly a moot point anyhow as you typically are going to need to buy all new parts for the stroker anyway as the crank, rods, and pistons are all likely to change dimensions. By getting a bit crazier with the heads and the cam I have been required to go past the level of the cheaper kits – but no reason they shouldn’t work here.
First thing to be answered is whether it is a one or two piece rear main seal block.   It is the fact that this boat is a 2 piece rear main seal that makes the crank custom and more expensive. It might be cheaper to get a one piece block and have it machined as the basis for your new build – if you get the block cheap it allows you to keep your current bottom end together as a saleable or usable backup- and then no custom reverse rotation crank is needed. Just a custom reverse rotation rear seal – which is probably still available somewhere.   
If it was a 302 and not a 351 switching blocks and cranks from a one piece rear main to a two would be more complicated to differences in the balancer and flywheel.


That being said lets get a thread started on them there flo tek heads seriously dying to know how they roll in the real world of ski boat engines...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 5:32pm
Aluminum heads usually allow a half to full point more compression without detonation.
How much compression do you have in your 408?
The stroker engines by design are more prone to detonation than a 302 or 351.
Personally I would build the engine to run happy on 87 octane. When you hit the waterways many times that is all you can buy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


How much compression do you have in your 408?
.


At the moment I am in the mid 9s - have had as high as 10.6 - both with aluminum heads.   It ran pretty good at 10.6 until it didn't.   Either from a little sketch gas or running a prop that loaded the engine more than it was tuned for... melted or broken pistons were pretty easy to create. Broken blocks/cranks - also possible.

87 octane is not realistic if you are trying to better than 1hp/in3 in my opinion and even then you would be leaving hp on the table or running on the edge if you aren't running something computer controlled with minimally a knock sensor.

Nothing wrong with a stock engine but not a lot of point in my mind of throwing a stroker kit or a set of aluminum heads at something and then not giving it at least 91 - which I have found everywhere I have ever looked. .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 6:51pm
Not knocking you Joe, I understand completely and have built and own high HP engines.
I am really surprised you can't run full timing with 9.5 compression and aluminum heads in a boat.   Some of the new head designs work best with less timing than the OEM heads.
Vortec GM heads, some like as little as 28 max timing. Even some AFR heads max at 34 timing.   I don't know the Ford engines nearly as well as GM but I would expect similar issues with the newer designed chambers.
Running thicker gaskets to lower compression can sometimes make detonation worse by reducing your quench area. Running close to zero deck will help reduce detonation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

    It ran pretty good at 10.6 until it didn't.    


I love Joe's way with words. LOL

Another good one from one of his early stroker builds "I break em so you don't have to"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 7:17pm
Good stuff here! Now what can we do for my little Graymarine 4 banger - HA!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by skutsch skutsch wrote:

Good stuff here! Now what can we do for my little Graymarine 4 banger - HA!

Seriously, mill the head and chuck the flywheel up in the lathe to remove several pounds.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2017 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

    Seriously, mill the head and chuck the flywheel up in the lathe to remove several pounds.


You're not kidding I bet that flywheel weighs 150lbs (Ok, maybe 50lbs at least)! Anyway, that is a subject for another thread, sorry for the thread jack...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2017 at 4:20am
As far as breaking pistons so you don't have to, I was working the NHRA tour back in the early 90's, one of the top fuel team owners was talking with me and said he had just poured a new driveway. He had used Top Fuel Pistons like rocks in the concrete. They were working on a newer higher HP fuel systems and working out the bugs melted many pistons.
He said they were too expensive to throw away so now he has a driveway reminder of how many pistons they destroyed.
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