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PCM 351 hot restart issues (w/pertronix)

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dgabler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgabler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PCM 351 hot restart issues (w/pertronix)
    Posted: June-12-2017 at 3:58am
Hi,

Ignition: Pertronix (carb e.o. d-57-1)
Engine: Model PRD-WR-R10
Coil: R117001 from skidim

Purchased a '88 2001 this month. Boat appears to be in good condition however I am running into an issue with restarting when hot.

Specifically outing 1, Ran down the lake and after warmed up had a ski run in. Pulled and started great. After dropping the rope the boat would not restart. Got a tow back and 3/4 of the way back was able to get it to start.

Outing 2. Again, started like a champ on the ramp and ran around the lake. Remembering outing 1, killed the engine upwind of the ramp (just in case) and low and behold ran into the same issue.   Pulled the cable from cylinder 5, using a screwdriver looked for spark. Did not see spark on turnover 1. 30seconds later tried again and saw spark, engine started. pulled the boat.

Differences between outing 1 & 2. engine ran cooler between outings . outing 1 was 190, outing 2 140ish.

-----
Notes/Misc:
When engine started on outing 2 temp was around 120.
Carb was rebuilt wrong (the acceleration pump linkage was not hooked up correctly, fixed it)
The coil is mounted in a vertical position (and strapped near the bottom) unlike the picture from the manual.

Besides the coil I am not sure what else would the be the issue here. Input / Thoughts?   Much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 9:21am
Pertronix is known for being unreliable.

Since you can make it fail (by running), at next failure, I would trigger the coil manually by grounding (-) side repeatedly while watch for spark. That will rule coil in or out.

Also check that the pertronix unit is well grounded.
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dgabler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgabler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 1:34pm
Is this test plan correct?
0 replicate failure
1 put key in run position with ignition on.
2 manually ground the coil to the block (repeat)
3 (while 2) look for spark between ground and coil output

The pertronix unit does not appear to have any ground on it other than the output leads, Those appeared OK no corrosion on the ring connectors where they connect to the coil that I could see.

The thing that gets me is that when running it works great (Idle/nowake may be a bit rough). when it replicates It will restart eventually when things cool down. It just seems odd that all works as it heats up till powered off then the problems start.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 3:02pm
Nope, not that odd at all...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 3:37pm
Put a point set back in! seriously!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by dgabler dgabler wrote:

Is this test plan correct?
0 replicate failure
1 put key in run position with ignition on.
2 manually ground the coil to the block (repeat)
3 (while 2) look for spark between ground and coil output



Test plan good, just make sure you ground the (-) side of coil.

I think it is rare, but we have heard of rust between the dizzy & block creating a ground path problem.   That doesn't fit with your heat sensitive issue though . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiralhelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 9:01pm
It's funny that the MC FB folks sing nothing but praises for the Pertronix stuff. Though they haven't really provided me with enough benefit to ditch the points. So I agree with Pete

Wouldn't hurt to give Pertronix a jingle, they seem to be pretty good with support from what I hear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shierh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 9:43pm
so many things it could be. I have experienced loose and or corroded connections replicate this. the transmission kill switch loose wires did this once.   Distributor as others said could be suspect..   There is also fuel,

If it was mine, I would go through all wires and connections, pull the main connector on the engine, clean out the connector and put back together with dielectric grease. do all the connections engine and dash. do not stop going through systems, you will likely find other problems.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shierh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 9:56pm
Re Pertronix, They are great units. I ran the base pertronix in my offshore boat, had twin big blocks, they were great and never had an issue in the 5 years I ran them.   

when I installed them I had both distributors overhauled at Mallory and I replaced all the ignition wires, plugs and coil.   everything was perfect
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by shierh shierh wrote:

when I installed them I had both distributors overhauled at Mallory


Seems strange that Mallory would go thru them with th PT module installed in them
Keep it as original as YOU want it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shierh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 10:08pm
I sent to them without points , told them I wasn't using points again. they cleaned them up. install new main bushings, springs, weight bushings etc.   
that was in 2004, I don't think they offer the service anymore.   The company has changed hands a couple of times since.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 74Wind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-12-2017 at 10:38pm
For what it's worth:
Put Pertronix in one of mine (75 Chrysler 360) maybe 10? years ago. Ran like a champ for 7 or so years with absolutely zero problems. Haven't run that boat since, but when i do get around to firing it up again, have no "Pertronix fears".

That being said..seemed like a good idea at the time and have had no problems or regrets, but f i could do it again, not sure I'd bother switching it over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgabler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-13-2017 at 2:15am
Thank you all for your input! This evening the problem took some time to rear its head but it did eventually. When following the test plan the coil did still spark but weakly and intermittently.   Switched out with another coil and the problem appears to be solved. Will have to run some extended tests but fingers crossed.

And yes when the issue was happening the engine would crank over just fine but not catch. Fuel was a full tank of new gas.

Interestingly the temp did fluctuate between 140 and 160 during the numerous runs (often dropping to 120 when sitting). From reading other posts sounds like there may be an air leak or possibly a bad t-stat. Filter screen bowl does not have any air bubbles in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morfoot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-13-2017 at 8:29am
Glad you found the problem.... FWIW, I've had a Petronix module in my 88' for over 10 years now and I have never had an issue with it. I've changed the coil a couple times as it went bad but have never had an issue with mine (knock knock)

That being said I DO keep the old plate, points, condenser, and rotor in the boats toolbox in case that day ever comes but until then....I ain't taking it out.
"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fgroce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-13-2017 at 9:23am
I also like the Petronix, have one in the 88 2001 for over 15 years no trouble. When it breaks we will get another one, I will never go back to points,   The boat starts so much better with the solid state ignition. I did not think it would make a difference and put it off for a long time glade we did upgrade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-13-2017 at 11:20am
I wonder why so many people lately are having trouble with them? It's not just here or in boats either. Troubles with points are not many have experience setting them up and quality of the replacements have slipped.
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