1980 SN stalling when hot / won't restart |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Posted: June-21-2017 at 6:46pm |
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Hey all, probably should've posted here a long time ago, but alas, I'm here now. I have a 1980 SN that I've been fighting with for probably 15 or 16 months now. This is my last ditch effort at finding a solution before I move on from this boat in some form or fashion. I paid $4200 and i've spent probably $2K at this point so I'm reaching the point where i need to make a decision on whether or not I want to continue on this path.
She starts and runs like brand new when she's cold, but ever since the start of last summer, each time I've ran her she's been stalling and dying after warmed up. After running for anywhere between 30 or 40 minutes and as much as 2 or 3 hours, she will stall, die and be difficult or impossible to re-start. Sometimes with throttle or time she'll re-start, but she'll stall and die again thereafter. I've spent time, money and effort on this problem for the last 8-10 months, but I've run out of all 3. To me, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a relatively competent mechanic or experienced boat owner/operator could diagnose and fix this without too much hassle because it just "feels" like that kind of problem, but i'm not that person. Any advise or ideas at all would be helpful. I've listed everything below that has been replaced or repaired in the last 1-1/2 years, either directly or indirectly related to solving this problem: - new electricals (plugs, wires, cap, rotor) - new starter motor - new coil - new solenoid (2 of 'em) - new fuel separator & mount - carburetor rebuilt last summer (twice) - new main fuel line |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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I should note; engine is Commander 351, Holley 4160 Carburetor.
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RammerJammer
Groupie Joined: June-02-2015 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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I had this issue the first few months I owned my boat. I simplified the electrical system by removing some mods the PO made (like gunnel LED lighting and ground splices) and I got a new Marine Starting battery (the PO had a deep cycle battery). I have not had the stall/no-start happen again. That was several years ago. I had not yet learned to troubleshoot with a VOM so I can't get more technical than that. Not sure if this helps.
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1991 Nautique Excel, PCM 351, Pro-Tec ignition
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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When the engine dies or won't start, do you have spark? What's in the distributor? A EI module? If so, is the coil matched to the module? Does the coil require a ballast resistor. Is the coil getting hot to the touch?
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shadow
Newbie Joined: July-27-2015 Location: badin lake, nc Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I had a problem that sounds a lot like yours, my problem turned out to be the fuel pump. I installed a fuel pressure gauge and that let me know what the problem was, my boat would run good for 15 or 20 min. and then start stalling, motors don't run very good with low or no fuel pressure, when the engine first started stalling, I would look at the fuel pressure and it was buzzing between 7 psi and 0 psi, installed a new fuel pump and the pressure runs a steady 6 psi.
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shadow
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Brainard, thanks much for your response. Here's the answer to your questions; 1) Do you have spark? YES 2) What's in the disti? EI 3) Is the coil matched? NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NO Longer answer to question 4, so I'm delineating between it and the others. My diagnoses and repair efforts have circled largely around the coil, to your point. Initially I replaced the coil early last year as part of routine electrical system maintenance with a new one that matched the existing one exactly (which had always performed well). Once the problems started occurring and I researched a bit, it became apparent the the coil i'd replaced with was possibly an "automotive" version and didn't include a ballast resistor which i believe the system requires. So, we replaced that coil with the right one and right away, it seemed fixed, but first launch this season and the problem cropped up again right away. I'll send/attach photos of the parts of the system we're referring to as soon as I can take some this evening Thanks very much for your help here.. |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Thanks Shadow. That was one of our thoughts too, but we tested it. Even switched it out to an electric pump and then back to the mechanical pump and it maintained pressure in all circumstances. |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Thanks Rammer, there are almost no mods on my boat and I've replaced the battery twice unfortunately. I do think it's possible that power delivery is somehow the problem, but if it is, I think it's somewhere else in the system. |
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scootdogydog
Senior Member Joined: November-03-2013 Location: Central MA Status: Offline Points: 404 |
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Three main things you need to start a boat (hot or cold) spark, fuel, and compression. When it gets hot, you can check for spark by pulling a plug and grounding it. You can check for fuel by looking in the carb. I assume that your compression is not your problem. It should be pretty simple to isolate if it's a spark or fuel problem. If you want to try fuel, pour a small amount of fuel down your carb.
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Thanks Scotty, ya, this is the part of the symptom that's kind of hard to describe. Compression is not an issue, as you surmise, but I also get spark and fuel both when the problem happens. As mentioned, it's not that it won't start at all, it's just very, very difficult and then won't stay running. Sometimes with extra fuel and fluttering the throttle it'll stay alive for a minute or so, but then will stall again and die. It acts very much like a fuel, air or possibly power delivery problem, but I'm just stumped on which parts of those systems could be the culprit considering the items that I've already eliminated, replaced or repaired. |
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scootdogydog
Senior Member Joined: November-03-2013 Location: Central MA Status: Offline Points: 404 |
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Have you considered an inline spark tester? That'll tell you when it's starting to die, if you're not getting spark until you give it more fuel
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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I have not, never heard of one as a matter of fact, but I'll look into it. |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Here's some photos:
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10646 |
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Is this a situation where you're running along at 30 mph or so and it quits or is it you come down to idle speed and it quits.
If it's the latter, I once had this problem drive me crazy for a while and it turned out to be the gasket between the carb spacer and the engine was in pretty bad shape and as things heated up a vacuum leak at that gasket made idling next to impossible, but let it cool off and things were good again. Not all spacers are the same but here's a picture of the bottom of a PCM spacer where it meets the intake manifold Not a lot of sealing area on the outside and some replacement gaskets just don't fit right so you have to make sure the gasket is big enough to seal all the way around the outer edges It may not be your problem at all but since you say you have spark and fuel when it quits, it's probably worth looking at if it only quits at idle speeds. If it quits at high speeds, it's probably not the issue |
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5311 |
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Is that coil Oil filled or epoxy filled? Oil filled coils DO NOT like horizontal installations as a norm.
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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Also sounds crap in the antisyphon valve, clogged cone screen in the fuel pickup or a clogged tank vent.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
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Lots of good advice above but also two very typical things to look at
Low voltage issues due to bad ignition switch or weak wiring... check to see how many volts you are seeing at the coil with the engine on when you are having a problem. Also it sounds to me like you are simply flooding the engine - look down the carb throat when it wont start and if you see fuel dripping that is bad. If it is flooding it will start with the throttle open - don't pump the throttle, don't wiggle the throttle - open it wide open and crank it to allow enough air in to match the amount of fuel you have - then crank it for a bit. If it starts like that then you need to fix and or adjust your floats. |
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Donald80SN
Grand Poobah Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Denver, NC Status: Offline Points: 3887 |
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I had a 1980 myself and I had a person rebuild the carb who knew what they were doing and upon reinstalling the carb, it did not work properly. I then sent the Carb to Carolina Carburetor Specialist in Wilmington, NC 910-762-4695 (Butch). They once again did a rebuild and actually did a remanufacture of the unit. They found that one of the floats was slightly out of spec or too heavy. Not filled with fuel from a leak, just out of spec. I would of chased my tail forever to have found this. JoeinNY and TimBj, tried very hard to help me at the White Lake Mini several years ago but we could not find the issue.
When Carolina Carb Specialist does a remanufacture, they put the carb on a Flow Bench which simulates an engine. They dial it in right there so it is Plug N Play. It was not cheap, but it saved my summer and the boat ran better than ever. I also realize you are in Washington State, but you could ship it to be taken care of. I know one from this site that has used a company in Jacksonville, Florida, name slips me, that sells on e-bay with great results. They send you a remanufactured carb and you send them your core of credit. They have several actual engines on stands that they use to dial in the carbs. I probably would of come out cheaper if I would of just purchased a new Holley, but I have heard people on this site have issue right out of the box with them. I am not able to dial them in. Also, the older carbs have the spacer with the PVC Vent Line on them. The new Holley Carbs have that built in so then I was going to have to find a new spacer. Being the boat was a ultra rare, d*ck Pope family / Cypress Gardens , Bush Gardens, 1980 Master's boat and even pulled the 1980 Moomba Master's I decided a new carb might devalue such a rare boat. In my opinion, it is getting harder to find people familiar with Carbs on the shop level. Fuel Injection has been around so long I consider it a dying art. Maybe I am wrong. |
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1980 Ski Nautique SOLD Back to Cypress Gardens
2002 Sport Nautique, GT-40, FCT2, Cover Sports, Tower Bimini, Inc., Wet Sounds Audio System, Star Gazer Wake Edition S. 1968 Ski Nautique, Project. |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Keno, thanks for following up. This is worth looking into because the short answer is "yes", it's more problematic at low speeds / idle. I don't want to say it runs great at high revs once the problem starts happening, but it does at least sometimes stay running if I can get it up to 4-5K rpms.. |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Oil! I'll see if I can change the orientation, worth a shot! |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Not the tank vent because I've checked that, but possible on the other 2. Would the fuel pickup act differently when it's cold vs. warm? I've heard the antisiphon valve referenced before, but I don't actually know where to find it, do you know where it would be? |
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shierh
Gold Member Joined: April-29-2015 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 605 |
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I found loose wires from the trans cut out was causing intermittent issues.
also could be fuel. Sort of a vapor lock could be happening, Weak pump or something internal in the carb or if there is a check valve that could be an issue. Carter fuel pump isn't that expensive, if its old then put in a new one. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10646 |
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The Neutral Safety Switch on the trans won't affect how it runs. It will prevent the starter from turning over at all if the boat isn't in neutral when you want to start it and when the engine is running the NSS is completely out of the picture |
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bchopkins
Newbie Joined: June-29-2015 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Thanks Joe, i'm going out this weekend so i'll get a voltmeter on the coil when i first start it and again when it stalls (inevitably) and see if there's a difference. As far as the flooding goes, there is no fuel dripping when it won't start, it pumps fuel into the throat of the carb as it should when you pump the throttle, but I honestly can't say for sure if I've tried the wide open throttle technique so I'll try that. It just struck me, there's one thing I have failed to mention that never seemed related, but if the main problem is a voltage issue, this could be pertinent. When the issue occurs and i have to try cranking a lot to restart, the starter solenoid sometimes will not disengage even when I turn the key back to "off". It just keeps cranking and i have to shut the battery off to get it to stop. That issue only cropped up later last summer so it wasn't happening when the initial problem started to occur, but possibly could be some sort of clue...? |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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double post
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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+1 I too thought of mal adjusted floats. your carb guy adjusted the floats on his bench, level.... they may need a little tweaking because of the angle your engine sits at. your coil being horizontal for a while may have caused a heat related issue. This might mean that a replacement is needed, not just a relocation. If the damage is already done,you won't know the coil is malfunctioning until it is heated up. IMO intermittent coil problems are hard to diagnose. also to note - your rubber fuel line with clamps is not USCG approved, you need to get or bend a fuel line out of brake line or purchase the flexible one from Skidim. While not USCG approved, you could also get a flexible aviation style hose from the pump to the carb, using AN fittings and a stainless braided fuel line. Jegs and Summit have the Holley side of the fittiings... this is probably way more trouble than just ordering the line from skidim though. one last thing... The transmission switch won't affect your runnability, it only affects the starting circuit. if you question it, an easy work around is to jumper the two terminals on the switch. |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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Yes, they can manifest in peculiar ways, sometimes be good for hours at low speeds then take a fast slalom at 36 instead of 34, or foot, and the boat falls on its face four minutes in. The AS valve is a poppet within the NPT-to-barb fitting on the 90 out of the tank. Totally covert. The cone screen some have, some not. Its sandwiched between the tank fitting, and the dip tube. One has to remove the tank outlet and unscrew the dip tube from the fitting to confirm its presence. it clogs easily due to not much total area Either of these will cause you fits and usually the cause of mistakenly assigned 'vapor lock folklore'. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 885 |
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As long as you have spark when the issue occurs, IMHO this is a fuel issue when hot.
Friend with an '83 had the exact same symptoms you've described. I replaced the intake manifold gasket and the carb base gaskets and....voila. Cured a hot vacuum leak. |
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shadow
Newbie Joined: July-27-2015 Location: badin lake, nc Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I would just install a fuel pressure gauge and the next time you have a problem, look at the fuel pressure gauge, then you would know if it was a fuel problem from the tank to the engine.
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shadow
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shierh
Gold Member Joined: April-29-2015 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 605 |
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go through everthing
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