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Suckin' up the pink stuff

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    Posted: October-18-2017 at 8:52am
After reading some stuff lately about using the suck up method with RV antifreeze, I figured it was time to do a little test of sorts.

Quinner has spent a lot of time on this site and on that "other" site saying that if you're gonna do the suck up method you need to drain everything you can to ensure you have the advertised level of protection

Meaning that if the bottle says burst protection guaranteed to minus 50 degrees F. that's what you'll get.

Someone else has argued that you can simply do no drain at all and suck 5 gallons through and you'll have full protection   If you have a shower or heater in the boat you have them on during this process and voila............they're protected too.

Lots of discussion took place about mixing of the antifreeze with the water in the engine, the heater, transmission cooler etc.

One train of thought was that there was mixing going on as the antifreeze went from the bucket through the engine and some level of protection would be lost due to this.

The other was that the antifreeze "displaced" the water as it went through and no mixing happened.

I figured this was easy enough to test.

I didn't need much to do this test

A 5 gallon bucket, 5 gallons of propylene glycol based RV antifreeze, a refractometer that worked with propylene glycol based antifreeze and a boat to winterize and a hose to suck it from the bucket. The engine was a 351W with NO heater or shower.

The antifreeze had an advertised freeze point of plus 9 degrees and burst protection down to minus 50 degrees

I pulled out the refractometer which will tell you the freeze point of the antifreeze and checked what was in the bottle. It told me that it was a 30% solution of propylene glycol with a freeze point of plus 9 degrees just like advertised.
.
Most of the other 70 % is water according to the Safety Data Sheet from the manufacturer. It was propylene glycol with no ethanol unlike some of the cheaper minus 50 degree stuff.which has lots of ethanol and very little propylene glycol

I drove the boat to ensure it was up to temperature and the thermostat was open, we pulled it on the trailer and right away did the test at the launch ramp

Test conditions were a hot engine, no water drained from the manifolds or the engine through any plugs and the bucket was hooked up and then the engine started

Then the 5 gallons was sucked through and the engine turned off.

We then pulled the drain plugs on each side of the block, collected some of what came out from each to test it's freeze point and see if it was full strength or had been diluted and if so by how much.

Just looking at the samples from the block it was obvious that it was diluted based on the color as compared to what was in the bottles.

When it was tested with the refractometer, the samples from the engine were 15% propylene glycol with a freeze point of plus 22 degrees.

So there was plenty of mixing and loss of protection.

What that plus 22 freeze point correlates to as far as burst protection, I'm not sure, but it won;t be very good at all. Some may think that you're now protected to minus 25 degrees, you can think that if you want to

By the way a sample from the transmission cooler was undiluted and tested at plus 9 for the freeze point but that;s logical since all 5 gallons had to pass thru it to get to the engine.

So what I get out of this is, if you live up north and do it this way, you're rolling the dice, maybe you win, maybe mother nature wins. Maybe you've done it this way for years and had no issues.

If you live far enough south you'll be OK, that's for you to decide.

And mixing and dilution definitely take place during this process.

If you drain and do the "suck up" method, you might have some small amount of residual water that mixes, but for all practical purposes you have the advertised level of protection from the antifreeze you use.

There are plenty of ways to winterize including just draining so this isn't meant to tell somebody how to winterize their engine but just to show that dilution takes place when you don't drain first.

And last but not least, I just can't help myself here, Quinner you're a Winner

Oh, And one last thing, if you don't like my results, that's OK with me, feel free to check your method for yourself, maybe your results will be different


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KENO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 8:53am
By the way, after all that I drained everything for the winter
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Riley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 9:33am
Good test, Ken. I would have expected those results. I know someone that wrecked their engine doing the no drain/suck up method.

I always pour a half gallon of anti freeze in after draining the water out and then drain the anti freeze out to purge any remaining water and it usually is diluted, based on the color.

I then fill the block with more anti freeze and leave it there till spring.    We've been discussing draining it out as at that point the engine is well protected and we could re use that anti freeze on anther boat, cutting down our winterization expense. Sounds like that's what you do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 9:43am
Ken,
Yes, thanks for the test with definite results.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:04am
Hi Bruce

We do things about the same

I do the last drain like you were thinking of with some minus 100 stuff from West Marine or minus 80 or 100 boiler anti freeze and check it with the refractometer and reuse it again or add some more fresh straight stuff to lower the freeze point to where I'm comfortable reusing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:16am
We only use -100 now. I bought a refractometer from McMaster only to find out it only goes to -50, so the last step has not been implemented yet. Switching to -100 allows us to use only about 2 gallons per engine rather than 3. It seems like if you're going to flush all the water out with anti freeze, there's no reason to have anti freeze in the block. One of our engines probably couldn't be replaced and it has screw in freeze plugs, so there's no chance of getting lucky with them, (I know they're casting plugs Pete), so I try to leave no room for error.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:17am
Here's a West marine link with what to me is lots of good info including burst and freeze points.

West Marine page
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:26am
The refractometer measures the freeze point not the burst point so a minus 50 freeze point means a burst point down around minus 80 or so.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:32am
Interesting to see that theory proven. Good info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:53am
Great info Ken, proves what many of us believed to be true. Love it that you took the time to quantify, kind of ends the argument, doesn't it?

What has baffled me about this, in my own experience, is that the people that argue with me that there's no need to drain the block use the same 4 gallons or so that I use. So they save the huge effort of pulling a few plugs, takes so little effort and time, then use the same amount of antifreeze anyway. Why not be safe rather than argue the point? I don't get it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:00pm
I'm with you Dave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:18pm
Ken,
I'd like to add that your timing is perfect since this time of the years the posts and the debate will start coming in!    Thanks again and your forethought is appreciated.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:39pm
You might have missed the conversation on PN Pete. Everything Quinner knows about fluid dynamics was throughly tested with running Coors Lite through his system. Matter of fact,years of testing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:43pm
What's frightening is that Quinner is the "Pete" of PN. He says ridiculous and controversial things like not to use Fram filters, at which point a dozen people sneer at him for his stupid suggestions.

I exaggerate of course, but it's kind of amusing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by 63 Skier 63 Skier wrote:

What's frightening is that Quinner is the "Pete" of PN. He says ridiculous and controversial things like not to use Fram filters, at which point a dozen people sneer at him for his stupid suggestions.

I exaggerate of course, but it's kind of amusing!


Someone should start a PN thread so this stuff can be linked for us non members.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:57pm
https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/forum/nautique-topics/maintenance-technical-discussion/540340-newbie-winterization

I don't know if the "Charles" comments were deleted by him or by someone else. It's all good, a debate about boats can't be a bad thing, the trouble is some guy with a lot of money tied up in his boat gets told to use a method that may freeze the block, someone has to chime in to help him out, and so starts the debate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:10pm
_____________
“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by 75 Tique 75 Tique wrote:

Fixed Link

https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/forum/nautique-topics/maintenance-technical-discussion/540340-newbie-winterization


Thank you sir. What did I miss, my link looks identical???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:20pm
Quote yourself to see. Sometimes for some unexplicable reason, when you do a link a bunch of extra junk is added at the beginning.

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“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:22pm
Can't forget this one, with plenty of deletions too but you can see where people quoted "Charles". Since he did his deletions it's kinda hard to follow.

I'm another non member too

link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:44pm
Thanks Ken, I think that was the one I was thinking of at first anyway. Dangerous place for people to go for mechanical advice, there's some other boat related discussions that are very good and helpful. While I'm not in the market, I enjoy reading about newer hulls and powertrains and the pros and cons of each.

My preferred winterization technique the past few years is a heated storage location.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 2:12pm
I figure there are some plenty smart people there.

Just to list one example is the fix for the GT-40 ECM issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 2:40pm
Absolutely Ken, and I apologize for painting with a broad brush. I have that ECM thread bookmarked for when mine dies. And like I said, if I want to know some characteristics of a boat newer than 2006 or so I'd tend to ask questions and search there rather than here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 2:45pm
Well no matter who they have there is no KenO!!!

Ken, great test and post, thank you for the vindication, lol!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 3:03pm
Never thought I'd ever see suckin' up the pink stuff and Quinner used in the same thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jay SE IN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2017 at 11:58am
Thanks for the PROVEN information.( It is as I suspected all these years)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2017 at 12:57pm
Quinner. Did you link this thread to the ones on PN, so that charlie guy with the boat with no drain plugs can see the results of pumping without draining? As others pointed out, he is in NC and not quite a critical as up north, but blocks can freeze and bust down here too. Happened to a friend of mine down here a few years ago.
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“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2017 at 1:59pm
Larry I did not bother, not sure if you saw any of Chuckies posts be he was being a real Richard at times and no point in trying to convince a guy who aggressively argued that our engines have no drain plugs that Ken's tests are more reliable then Underwriters Laboratories!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2017 at 2:02pm
My engine has no spark plugs.
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“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2017 at 2:11pm
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