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"Blown" Ford 351

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JoeinNY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2019 at 5:28pm
That crank is dead bro, The snout likely didnt break the crank likely broke a bit back and what you see is the runout at the snout.... even if the snout is the only thing broken it is part of the crank so the crank is broke. You would not want to spend any money fixing that crank. Perhaps the block as well... but no good either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2019 at 5:41pm
I agree the crank in your boat is dead. I worked in the engine business for nearly 30 years.
Neve heard of a crankshaft being repaired except to clean up rod and main journals.
If they are cracked they are junk metal. Broken, even worse but still junk metal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2019 at 5:45pm
If the block is cracked as well, then I'm gonna be really sad. Then I'll do the next thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2019 at 5:52pm
The block may be perfect still, tear down will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2019 at 5:58pm
Keno posted a picture on June 28th showing the rear main seal on the crankshaft.
The wick lines or Helix are shown on the crankshaft.
If your new crankshaft does not have a helix it can turn in either direction.
I bet a replacement Scat or Eagle crankshaft would not have a Helix on the seal surface and those are usually available for less than $250.
You can also have a std rotation crankshaft polished to take off the helix as long as they don't take too much off you should be good. Wish you kept the old crank that came with your block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2019 at 6:05pm
Yes, kicking myself for not keeping the other crank, but I never thought.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-15-2019 at 1:14pm
William, you have a Private Message...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 5:15pm
Tore it down. The crank is not broken anywhere. It rings like a bell when tapped. But, and it's a big but, the journal at the front is ground down terribly. The #5 bearings spun. The tangs are worn off completely. The crank is dead. So, now I'm wanting to buy a new one. But that's easier said than done. Which one do I need? I'm looking online and see all sorts of measurements relating to stroke and diameter of rod journals. I think I have a 4.0 stroke but not sure and can't figure out the rod measurement. Online the prices seem to vary depending on the stroke? A 3.8 stroke is 175 while the 4.0 is 350. The 4.1 is again like 175. Help?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 7:11pm
A straight crank will spin straight even without the #5 bearing in the engine.
What made your crankshaft wobble or was it just a loose harmonic balancer?

A bad crankshaft bearing journal can be welded up and ground smooth again.
Welding and grinding would add an extra $150 to the crank repair, Estimate but cranks are out there and availabe so replacement is probably the best option.

The Tangs are only on the bearing for install proper location. They do not hold the bearings in place. Proper crush of the bearing holds it in place.
Crush is the amount of clamping force on the bearing when your properly torque the bearing cap in place. Some new engines do not use tangs on the bearings any longer.
The stock engine is approximately 3.5" stroke on the 351W. I would have to look it up to see if it is actually 3.485 or 3.510 does not matter, 3.5 is what you want for a stock replacement.
The 3.75 and longer strokes are all for upgraded engines with more cubic inches created by the longer stroke.
These are options you can choose but to go that route with alonger stroke you will need to add a lot of money. New Pistons, Maybe Connecting Rods, Balancing and maybe clearance work inside your block so this long stroke could work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 8:55pm
Thank you for the reply. I can;t figure why the crank was behaving the way it was. After I removed the balancer I turned the engine over and if you stuck a pencil in the snout it would have drawn circles instead of a single point on some imaginary paper. After I removed the pistons the crank was spinning straight, drawing a dot. I assembled that engine WAY too tight. In my ignorance, I thought it would wear itself in. And it might have if I didn't go blasting across the lake on day 2. But I did. And I killed it. Do I measure the rod end inside without the bearing? Found a crank that says 2.1 inch rod journal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:06pm
mine measure 2.4 without the bearing. inside diameter of the rod end.
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63 Skier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:06pm
I'm running through what you describe and can't figure out why the crank spins so out of true and then later appears to spin straight. You have to identify why before thinking about just a new crank and bearings and re-assembling.

Assembling way too tight is probably the problem that caused the spun bearing, much more so than your too-soon run across the lake. While that run may have spun it, I don't believe a more disciplined break-in would have made everything OK. As described above proper torque and bearing crush are critical, and if not followed the engine doesn't just wear itself in to proper specs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:08pm
You might do some reading and see if you assembled the bearing caps correctly. They have one correct way but can bolt on wrong if you do not know the orientation for each cap.
Same for the rods, they usually have one side that faces the other rod and one side that faces the crank throw. Something is wrong.
Do you have a picture of your crankshaft snout?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:14pm
I'm unable to identify why it behaved that way, It was moving as your finger would if you twirl it by the knuckle. And then it wasn't after I tore it down. I don't see how I could have found out what was going on without tearing it down. I think your point is, I need to figure that out before I buy another crank but how do I do that?.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:24pm
That crank is a nearly 3' long piece of machined cast steel. It will not twirl ever. It will rotate straight unless it is broken. It can't bend without breaking. You mentioned it rings like a bell so the part you are working with is not cracked.
That is why I asked for a picture. I am thinking you have an inch or 2 missing off the end of the crank now. I could be wrong. It may be inside your harmonic balancer at this point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:24pm
      There is a deep groove worn in on one side of the journal where the scewdriver is. It does not go all the way around the journal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:26pm
I'm telling you it was twirling. I could be losing my mind, but it was twirling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:38pm
William, Certainly not being critical and please don't take it that way but I think you are in way over your head. I think you would be far better off by looking over someones shoulder that is willing to explain every step of a rebuild with you. None of us were born mechanics or pro's in our field. We were taught. It looks to me like you are about to go down an expensive road again if you don't reach out for some help. Hope you can find some competent help to lead you along. Just my $.02 worth. Good luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 9:56pm
Duane, no offense taken. I agree. Just put the crank back on the bearings which are in the engine as it sits upside down outside. Spun it and it wobbles a bit. Like it's bent. There is a ton of clearance at the front bearing prolly because the crank is worn down so much. Also the #5 bearings appear to have shrunk. They don't fit the block anymore. Not just worn down but overall smaller. I'm done for now. Found a short block at 1200 bucks delivered. That would be the best next step prolly. I'm beat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 10:18pm
Hi Bill

You're doing pretty good for a hairdresser working on an engine

Better than I'd do giving somebody a haircut.

I'd probably practice on Pete's head full of long white hair.

Since you're spending some money I think I'd fork over the money for a Reverse Rotation 351W long block so you're starting with all freshly reconditioned parts and not bolting some old questionable condition heads on the fresh short block.

In the long run I think you'd be better off with the long block, maybe from the same place you're looking at the short block
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2019 at 11:02pm
The missing material in the damaged bearing has now gone through the entire engine and may have damaged other engine bearings or your piston rings depending on how long you ran it after the failure.
At this point your thoughts for a new short block may be exactly the easy way to enjoy this boat again.
Without going back and reading each post I don't remember are your heads in good shape? No reason to put old heads on a nice new short block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2019 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

William, I think you would be far better off by looking over someones shoulder that is willing to explain every step of a rebuild with you. It looks to me like you are about to go down an expensive road again if you don't reach out for some help.



William initially accepted, then politely turned down an offer for precisely that.
Seems pretty determined to figure this out himself.
I commend his efforts....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2019 at 2:33pm
Mourning Wood made a very gracious offer to drive here to my house and help with the engine. Then I tore it down and found all the damage. I declined his offer in order not to waste his time. I'm light years away from a step by step rebuild at this point. In fact a rebuild is not being considered at this point. I'm thinking new engine if I want this boat. I'm grateful to Mourning Wood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2019 at 4:06pm
Greatest thread ever!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-27-2020 at 2:14am
After completely giving up last year on the boat I just wrapped the good bits up and stuck them under my house. Offered the boat for free to everyone I know so I could use the space in the driveway for my car, No one bit, Sunday I walked down to the ramps at the lake and saw everybody putting their boats in and that did it. I'm back in the game. Going to buy a short block and dig in AGAIN.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 1:37pm
I'm back!! Ha! I received the short block from Texas, new rebuild. Some help from a friend and an Oak branch the front yard got it out of my minivan and into the boat. Assembled all the other engine parts, had a hell of a time indexing the distributor this time. Got it tho. Put the boat in the water and it started and ran and then began heating up, and up, and up. Went through timing thinking it was heating due to retarded timing, was wrong there. Now I'm thinking I installed the head gaskets wrong. By the way, I broke two intake manifold bolts of torqueing them to spec, and one of the water pump bolts. Modern bolts are crap? They were replaced prior to the restart. Anyway, now I'm thinking I may have blown up the last engine cuz I probably put the last head gaskets in wrong as well? Overheated it. BTW, I've named her "Perseverance" , it just came to me, from somewhere!! So attached is a photo of an old thread. Can someone confirm this is correct? Thanks, William. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 1:46pm
You really need to, once you sort through the problem, start the boat on the trailer for these test runs.  If it was on the trailer and you didn't have cooling water coming out the pipes you'd know to shut down immediately and figure it out.  $20 in parts at the hardware store and you've got a safe way to feed it water on the trailer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 1:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by 63 Skier 63 Skier wrote:

You really need to, once you sort through the problem, start the boat on the trailer for these test runs.  If it was on the trailer and you didn't have cooling water coming out the pipes you'd know to shut down immediately and figure it out.  $20 in parts at the hardware store and you've got a safe way to feed it water on the trailer.

Just ordered, thank you. W.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

I'm back!! Ha! I received the short block from Texas, new rebuild. Some help from a friend and an Oak branch the front yard got it out of my minivan and into the boat. Assembled all the other engine parts, had a hell of a time indexing the distributor this time. Got it tho. Put the boat in the water and it started and ran and then began heating up, and up, and up. Went through timing thinking it was heating due to retarded timing, was wrong there. Now I'm thinking I installed the head gaskets wrong. By the way, I broke two intake manifold bolts of torqueing them to spec, and one of the water pump bolts. Modern bolts are crap? They were replaced prior to the restart. Anyway, now I'm thinking I may have blown up the last engine cuz I probably put the last head gaskets in wrong as well? Overheated it. BTW, I've named her "Perseverance" , it just came to me, from somewhere!! So attached is a photo of an old thread. Can someone confirm this is correct? Thanks, William. 

Here's a link to the thread you copied that picture from


Sometimes you just don't know who to believe PCM and a dealer  or SkiDim or Ford.who designed and built the engine

In your case it sounds like maybe you picked the wrong people to listen to. 

Here's a picture that's probably worth a thousand words to show the head gasket orientation the way it should be Wink

In the thread linked above Alan's (81 Nautique) answer is as good as it can get...............the word FRONT stamped into the end of the gasket that's missing the extra holes goes to the FRONT on both sides of the engine.

With them installed right the flow is as balanced through the cylinders and heads evenly, with all of the cylinders and heads getting roughly the same amount of cooling.

The other way, you have some cylinders running much hotter and some running much cooler.

The gaskets in the picture are FelPro 17060 and they have FRONT stamped in on the top and the bottom of each gasket so that the front always goes to the front when you read that and put them on with the front in the front.

I think I've said FRONT enough times for now Wink

One gasket installed backwards isn't the end of the world though. People have run cars and boats like this without any immediate overheating issues and a normal looking temperature on the gauge, but long term it'll have an effect on the engine life due to localized overheating of the rear cylinders on the side with the backwards gasket.

If you're overheating, you have other issues to take care of.

The first most obvious question would be if your raw water pump is oriented the right way.




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