Starting Engine in cold weather |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | ||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: November-12-2017 at 1:52pm |
|
So I am out at the lake today and had someone who has came to look at the boat.
Temp is around 40 but it was freezing last night. I tried to start the boat and the boat fired up but I quickly noticed the water pump wasn't turning. Shut the engine down wait a while with the engine in the sun. Went to start it, the water pump is turning and the engine is turning but it's not firing now. Did I mess up by trying to start the engine when it was still too cold? Symptom is very similar to if the lanyard was disconnected. Engine turns but won't fire. Engine is a GT40. |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
No connection between no-fire & starting at 40 deg.
I'd check fuses & relays next. |
||
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
||
MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3590 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
If the water pump was frozen other areas in the block could be frozen.
I hope there is no freeze damage. I agree there is probably no connection between frozen water pump and your no start issue. Make sure your electric fuel pumps are working. |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I winterized on Thursday. But left the water pump in place because I knew I was taking the boat out today.
I didn't fill with AF. I am concerned that turning the engine over while it was still cold did some damage, even though I had drained it. Could a small amount of frozen water cause an issue? |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3590 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Depends on where it was stored. Hopefully not.
A freeze issue should not affect the starting issue. There is a common GT40 problem site on here that can help track the starting issue. |
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Paul,
I too don't feel there's any connection between the freeze and the no start. I'd say something got wet from condensation with the cold and then warming up. |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks for the help.
I agree I don't think the water pump and no fire issues are related other than that it was cold. I do think that the issue is most likely a fuel issue. As far as I can tell the HPP appears to be running and the fact that the boat originally fired up and idled for about 30 seconds, before dying, makes me think that it started with fuel in the FCC and then died after this ran out. My questions are, do we suspect the Low Pressure Pump? What's the best way for me to test the low pressure pump? Assuming I drained the block properly, any issues with me trying to start the engine while it was still freezing. I feel very stupid that it didn't occur to me that it might be a bad idea to try start the boat after temps hit the teens over night. While I don't think the frozen water pump is a big issue, Anything else I could've damaged? |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5693 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The Low pressure fuel pump is always a suspect - if there is no fuel in the FCC then it is very likely the LPP. You can start it cold and let it warm up and run... but water in the pump is a problem for sure... and if there is water there then likely there is water in the hose that feeds it and if that is frozen that will cause trouble too. A chunk of ice in a inlet hose cost me and Tim Benjamin an hour or two today in fact...
|
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I really doubt there's anything else damaged. The RWP is out in the open without any mass to store the BTU's. You say you drained the block so it's good. Did you drain the manifolds? Even if you didn't, there's plenty of cast iron there so they take some time and cold before there's a problem. |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks guys.
Joe, once the pump thawed I still wasn't getting water through the system. After some work I found several blocks of ice clogging up the pipes. Pete, yes drained everything that should've been drained. Block, Manifolds that U thing, v drive and transmission. It was pretty cold last night. I'm going to order an LPP and pick some relays and then try troubleshoot this on Thursday. Anything else I should be considering other than the LPP. |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
So after doing some reading and one other possible reason for the no start I have found is the fused wire from the battery to the EEC. I did have the battery out of the boat charging and when I put it back, didn't tighten this fused wire correctly. I noticed this later after the boat wouldn't start.
Some guess the loose wire migh've blown the fuse or breaker but would the HP pump still run if this fuse was blown? I was able to confirm the pump was running when turning the key on. |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
If you have not ordered a pump yet check this one out and save yourself almost a buck fifty over marine dealers-
Carter P 4389 just google or ebay it. someone will have it in the low 60's |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks for the tip Gary, is it a direct replacement? The saving is closer to $ 150 then $50
|
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Have not used one myself,but have heard from others. Ordering one this spring when I convert mine to a FCC. It is a marine pump too which is great. One thing I found out about PCM pumps is that they are outsourced and if they do have markings on them they are PCM's numbers not the oem's. So if you call the manufacturer they cannot cross reference them.
|
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Well, after many hours of reading and armed with a several spare parts including a new low pressure pump. I went to the boat today. Turn the ignition on, verified both pumps were running, tested the fuel.pressure at the rail at 40psi. Started the engine and she fired right up.
Not sure what wasn't working in the cold on Sunday. My money is on a frozen anti siphon value but really I have no idea. Don't plan to run the boat in that kind of cold again so dont think it is an issue. At least now I'll be ready if that LPP does fail. |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The anti syphon valve won't freeze unless you have a bunch of water in the fuel that would freeze. Pretty sure it wasn't cold enough for the fuel itself to freeze :-)
|
||
Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13510 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Certainly not ethanol fuel.
The anti-siphon valve is frozen brass already lol |
||
MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3590 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Glad you have it fixed and not too much head ache. I think the boys are on to something with the possibility of water in the fuel system freezing.
|
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
So I'm still dealing with this issue now in the spring.
So today trying to get the boat back on the water for the first time this season. Put the boat in the water today. With the boat in the water on the trailer I went to start and the battery was too dead to turn over. Pulled out my jump starter and just the boat and managed to get it to fire up. Boat ran for about 10 seconds and as I disconnected the battery the engine died. After that I could not get the boat to run again while.in the water. This is very similar to what was happening last year. Boat on trailer in ramp. Low battery using a jumper fired up.for a bit and then won't start.. Granted none of this could be relevant but I thought it was worth mentioning. Also after the no start isuue last year I did go back to the boat to try and figure out what was wrong and it fired right up. I didn't have it in the water so didn't run it for more then a few seconds. Also today after pulling the boat out of the water the boat fired and ran really rough for Ang 5 seconds before dying. I thought the issue may be related to the FFC filter so I changed that out today but it didn't fix the issue. I'm going to go back tomorrow with a fuel pressure gauge to see what reading I get. My other theory is the low battery is causing the issue and as I still have the fuse on the wire red wire that goes from the battery to the engine and I know this can cause issue. So I may remove that tomorrow. |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Paul,
Sure sounds like the battery is in bad shape! Did you check voltage at the battery? Anything below 10 volts isn't good. Was it fully charged when the boat was laid up? Was the battery stored disconnected? Take the battery in and have them run a load test on it. |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I haven't been the best with the battery and ran it flat several times last year. I didn't disconnect it at the end of last season. So it is not in great shape which is why I was using a jumper battery. If you think this could be the issue I'll get a fully charged battery and give it a try. Would I still have battery issue is the engine is turning over but not firing? |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Clean the terminals well too.
|
||
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
||
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10643 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I think so, I've had fuel injected vehicles that would turn over OK with a "not so good" battery but not start due to the voltage going to the computer/ECM being too low while cranking. Jump it and it would start and run since the alternator was now charging things. It's easy enough to try a different known good battery |
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
A starting type battery will get damaged when it's pulled below about 10 volts. It will probably handle one time and still work but beyond that I would say it's shot. |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Switched out the batter for one that was reading 12.43 on the VOM (battery is out of my 230 SAN). Still have the same issue.
Im getting fuel.pressure of 40 psi at the rail, does that rule out any supply issues (pumps, blockage etc? My next guess is bad gass. I did have some water in the FCC. Maybe a quarter ouce. If it's bad gass how do I clear it? Can I just run the it take into a small can of gas? |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Put a tester light on the spark plug and I have spark.
Anything to check now? I'm out of ideas besides the gas. |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Got her to fire up by opening the throttle with the boat in neutral.
Still won't fire with the throttle closed. Thoughts? |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
After starting twice with a wide open throttle, she now fires right up.
|
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10643 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Sounds like you flooded it earlier on and cleared things up with the throttle wide open.
|
||
Blamey
Gold Member Joined: August-18-2015 Location: White Plains,NY Status: Offline Points: 631 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
For some reason I thought you couldn't flood an EFI engine. I guess with a bit of luck you can. |
||
96 Super Sport
Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
||
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |