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Starting Engine in cold weather

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Blamey View Drop Down
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    Posted: November-12-2017 at 11:52am
So I am out at the lake today and had someone who has came to look at the boat.

Temp is around 40 but it was freezing last night. I tried to start the boat and the boat fired up but I quickly noticed the water pump wasn't turning. Shut the engine down wait a while with the engine in the sun. Went to start it, the water pump is turning and the engine is turning but it's not firing now.

Did I mess up by trying to start the engine when it was still too cold?

Symptom is very similar to if the lanyard was disconnected. Engine turns but won't fire.

Engine is a GT40.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 1:01pm
No connection between no-fire & starting at 40 deg.

I'd check fuses & relays next.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 1:34pm
If the water pump was frozen other areas in the block could be frozen.
I hope there is no freeze damage.
I agree there is probably no connection between frozen water pump and your no start issue.
Make sure your electric fuel pumps are working.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 1:44pm
I winterized on Thursday. But left the water pump in place because I knew I was taking the boat out today.

I didn't fill with AF.

I am concerned that turning the engine over while it was still cold did some damage, even though I had drained it. Could a small amount of frozen water cause an issue?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 3:33pm
Depends on where it was stored. Hopefully not.
A freeze issue should not affect the starting issue.
There is a common GT40 problem site on here that can help track the starting issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 4:26pm
Paul,
I too don't feel there's any connection between the freeze and the no start. I'd say something got wet from condensation with the cold and then warming up.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 7:23pm
Thanks for the help.

I agree I don't think the water pump and no fire issues are related other than that it was cold.

I do think that the issue is most likely a fuel issue. As far as I can tell the HPP appears to be running and the fact that the boat originally fired up and idled for about 30 seconds, before dying, makes me think that it started with fuel in the FCC and then died after this ran out.

My questions are, do we suspect the Low Pressure Pump?
What's the best way for me to test the low pressure pump?


Assuming I drained the block properly, any issues with me trying to start the engine while it was still freezing. I feel very stupid that it didn't occur to me that it might be a bad idea to try start the boat after temps hit the teens over night.

While I don't think the frozen water pump is a big issue, Anything else I could've damaged?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 7:28pm
The Low pressure fuel pump is always a suspect - if there is no fuel in the FCC then it is very likely the LPP.   You can start it cold and let it warm up and run... but water in the pump is a problem for sure... and if there is water there then likely there is water in the hose that feeds it and if that is frozen that will cause trouble too. A chunk of ice in a inlet hose cost me and Tim Benjamin an hour or two today in fact...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Blamey Blamey wrote:

While I don't think the frozen water pump is a big issue, Anything else I could've damaged?

I really doubt there's anything else damaged. The RWP is out in the open without any mass to store the BTU's. You say you drained the block so it's good. Did you drain the manifolds? Even if you didn't, there's plenty of cast iron there so they take some time and cold before there's a problem.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2017 at 8:26pm
Thanks guys.

Joe, once the pump thawed I still wasn't getting water through the system. After some work I found several blocks of ice clogging up the pipes.


Pete, yes drained everything that should've been drained. Block, Manifolds that U thing, v drive and transmission. It was pretty cold last night.

I'm going to order an LPP and pick some relays and then try troubleshoot this on Thursday.

Anything else I should be considering other than the LPP.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2017 at 5:58pm
So after doing some reading and one other possible reason for the no start I have found is the fused wire from the battery to the EEC. I did have the battery out of the boat charging and when I put it back, didn't tighten this fused wire correctly. I noticed this later after the boat wouldn't start.

Some guess the loose wire migh've blown the fuse or breaker but would the HP pump still run if this fuse was blown? I was able to confirm the pump was running when turning the key on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2017 at 6:15pm
If you have not ordered a pump yet check this one out and save yourself almost a buck fifty over marine dealers-
Carter P 4389   just google or ebay it. someone will have it in the low 60's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2017 at 6:36pm
Thanks for the tip Gary, is it a direct replacement? The saving is closer to $ 150 then $50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2017 at 7:09pm
Have not used one myself,but have heard from others. Ordering one this spring when I convert mine to a FCC. It is a marine pump too which is great. One thing I found out about PCM pumps is that they are outsourced and if they do have markings on them they are PCM's numbers not the oem's. So if you call the manufacturer they cannot cross reference them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2017 at 3:14pm
Well, after many hours of reading and armed with a several spare parts including a new low pressure pump. I went to the boat today. Turn the ignition on, verified both pumps were running, tested the fuel.pressure at the rail at 40psi. Started the engine and she fired right up.

Not sure what wasn't working in the cold on Sunday. My money is on a frozen anti siphon value but really I have no idea. Don't plan to run the boat in that kind of cold again so dont think it is an issue.

At least now I'll be ready if that LPP does fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2017 at 9:06am
The anti syphon valve won't freeze unless you have a bunch of water in the fuel that would freeze. Pretty sure it wasn't cold enough for the fuel itself to freeze :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2017 at 11:33am
Certainly not ethanol fuel.

The anti-siphon valve is frozen brass already lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2017 at 3:38pm
Glad you have it fixed and not too much head ache. I think the boys are on to something with the possibility of water in the fuel system freezing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-21-2018 at 9:03pm
So I'm still dealing with this issue now in the spring.

So today trying to get the boat back on the water for the first time this season.

Put the boat in the water today. With the boat in the water on the trailer I went to start and the battery was too dead to turn over. Pulled out my jump starter and just the boat and managed to get it to fire up. Boat ran for about 10 seconds and as I disconnected the battery the engine died. After that I could not get the boat to run again while.in the water.

This is very similar to what was happening last year. Boat on trailer in ramp. Low battery using a jumper fired up.for a bit and then won't start..

Granted none of this could be relevant but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Also after the no start isuue last year I did go back to the boat to try and figure out what was wrong and it fired right up. I didn't have it in the water so didn't run it for more then a few seconds.

Also today after pulling the boat out of the water the boat fired and ran really rough for Ang 5 seconds before dying.

I thought the issue may be related to the FFC filter so I changed that out today but it didn't fix the issue.

I'm going to go back tomorrow with a fuel pressure gauge to see what reading I get.

My other theory is the low battery is causing the issue and as I still have the fuse on the wire red wire that goes from the battery to the engine and I know this can cause issue. So I may remove that tomorrow.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-21-2018 at 9:34pm
Paul,
Sure sounds like the battery is in bad shape! Did you check voltage at the battery? Anything below 10 volts isn't good. Was it fully charged when the boat was laid up? Was the battery stored disconnected? Take the battery in and have them run a load test on it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-21-2018 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Paul,
Sure sounds like the battery is in bad shape! Did you check voltage at the battery? Anything below 10 volts isn't good. Was it fully charged when the boat was laid up? Was the battery stored disconnected? Take the battery in and have them run a load test on it.


I haven't been the best with the battery and ran it flat several times last year. I didn't disconnect it at the end of last season. So it is not in great shape which is why I was using a jumper battery.

If you think this could be the issue I'll get a fully charged battery and give it a try.

Would I still have battery issue is the engine is turning over but not firing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 8:23am
Clean the terminals well too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Blamey Blamey wrote:


Would I still have battery issue is the engine is turning over but not firing?


I think so,

I've had fuel injected vehicles that would turn over OK with a "not so good" battery but not start due to the voltage going to the computer/ECM being too low while cranking.

Jump it and it would start and run since the alternator was now charging things.

It's easy enough to try a different known good battery
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 8:53am
Originally posted by Blamey Blamey wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Paul,
Sure sounds like the battery is in bad shape! Did you check voltage at the battery? Anything below 10 volts isn't good. Was it fully charged when the boat was laid up? Was the battery stored disconnected? Take the battery in and have them run a load test on it.


I haven't been the best with the battery and ran it flat several times last year. I didn't disconnect it at the end of last season. So it is not in great shape which is why I was using a jumper battery.

A starting type battery will get damaged when it's pulled below about 10 volts. It will probably handle one time and still work but beyond that I would say it's shot.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 3:34pm
Switched out the batter for one that was reading 12.43 on the VOM (battery is out of my 230 SAN). Still have the same issue.

Im getting fuel.pressure of 40 psi at the rail, does that rule out any supply issues (pumps, blockage etc?

My next guess is bad gass. I did have some water in the FCC. Maybe a quarter ouce. If it's bad gass how do I clear it?

Can I just run the it take into a small can of gas?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 3:55pm
Put a tester light on the spark plug and I have spark.

Anything to check now? I'm out of ideas besides the gas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 4:53pm
Got her to fire up by opening the throttle with the boat in neutral.

Still won't fire with the throttle closed. Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 5:03pm
After starting twice with a wide open throttle, she now fires right up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 5:39pm
Sounds like you flooded it earlier on and cleared things up with the throttle wide open.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blamey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-22-2018 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Sounds like you flooded it earlier on and cleared things up with the throttle wide open.


For some reason I thought you couldn't flood an EFI engine. I guess with a bit of luck you can.
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