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fish nautique prop rotation

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    Posted: January-05-2018 at 4:45pm
I have a fish nautique that I bought without eng and trans. I bought a 351w eng and borg warner velvet drive 1 to 1 trans out of a ski nautique. I am in the process of rebuilding the eng. the eng rotation is standard rotation the same as in a car. the prop on the boat is right hand rotation. Do I have to change the prop to make this work or does the trans convert the rotation.? Thanks to all who can help. I am 72 now and dont know if I am going to be able to complete this project or use the boat when back together. I may have to let it go. so let me know if there is any interest. Thanks again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2018 at 5:00pm
If you are going left rotation then yes you will need a new left hand propeller. And no the borg is not full reversing, so also you will need to turn or index the front pump on the transmission to turn to the standard left rotation if it was set up to turn right rotation.
Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2018 at 9:50pm
Thought I'd ask what might be a silly question................. or maybe not so silly

A 351 with a Borg Warner from a Ski Nautique is most likely a reverse rotation engine unless it was a swap by a previous owner or something.

By the time SN's used LH engines they had Pleasurecraft transmissions behind them and SN's have always turned a RH prop regardless of engine rotation.(thru the use of different transmissions)

Are you rebuilding a reverse rotation engine to be a normal rotation engine or have you verified it's normal automotive rotation?

If you're rebuilding and changing rotation you could run into rear main seal issues among other things

Looking at your old posts it's hard to tell what you might have, so I thought I'd ask and maybe save you some issues and hopefully not confuse you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turboapache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2018 at 9:56pm
I have verified the rotation of the motor, it is the same as the car engine. The eng and trans came out of the boat together.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2018 at 10:04pm
Then a new prop should do it for you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2018 at 11:24pm
not aware of any LH 351 bg 1:1s from the factory but that's not to say you don't have one on your hands. what boat? probably rebuilt or joined together later in life...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turboapache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:10am
It is a pcm 351 and it came out of an older ski not sure of the year but I helped pull it out of the boat and the tag on the trans says 1 to 1 if that helps. Does anyone know if I put a left hand prop on the boat what if any changes will occur in handling of the boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:11am
For a fish probably not. I would do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turboapache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:16am
If I go to a left hand prop what size and pitch would be best? I am not able to get down and check the prop that is on the boat for any markings. It is a shame to have to change out the prop because the one on the boat is beautiful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turboapache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:20am
I have seen several vedios of .351 marine engines running and all that I have seen are standard rotation like a car eng.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:49am
IIRC up until the adoption of the PCM 40-A (1.23:1) trans (1989) all the CC Ski Nautiques I've been around (whether PCM or Commander) have been RH (non-automotive) rotation.
The BW 1:1 trans does not have means to turn the prop in a direction other than the motor, except in reverse gear.

Possible the donor SN may have had a powertrain replaced at some point. There were available PCM/BW 1:1 LH for twin engine use.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 6:24am
Originally posted by turboapache turboapache wrote:

the eng rotation is standard rotation the same as in a car.

Originally posted by turboapache turboapache wrote:

I have seen several vedios of .351 marine engines running and all that I have seen are standard rotation like a car eng.

Stroboscopic effect????

Harold,
How did you determine the engine is a standard left hand rotation? Have you had the engine running?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turboapache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 6:38am
I checked the raw water pump impeller and checked the starter rotation to see which way it turned the eng. also you can tell by the waterpump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 7:00am
Originally posted by turboapache turboapache wrote:

I checked the raw water pump impeller and checked the starter rotation to see which way it turned the eng. also you can tell by the waterpump.

We have had several members who have installed wrong rotation starters by mistake. What rotation is the trans pump indexed for? Was the RWP impeller changed before you got the engine? Was the engine running in the boat with a RH prop it was pulled from?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 10:17am
Originally posted by MourningWood MourningWood wrote:

IIRC up until the adoption of the PCM 40-A (1.23:1) trans (1989) all the CC Ski Nautiques I've been around (whether PCM or Commander) have been RH (non-automotive) rotation.
The BW 1:1 trans does not have means to turn the prop in a direction other than the motor, except in reverse gear.

Possible the donor SN may have had a powertrain replaced at some point. There were available PCM/BW 1:1 LH for twin engine use.



And they used a ton of them (PCM/BW 1:1 LH) in those other brand ski boats, called, Mastercraft , Ski Supreme, Supra and plenty of others back then.

For Harold A picture of the front of the transmission looking right at the oil pump would go a long way right now to tell you what direction of rotation it was set up for..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 11:59am
Harold,
I encourage you to take some more time to investigate the engine rotation. Including myself, there are 4 members who have questioned if your 351 is a LH (automotive) engine. I and others feel the only possibility of the engine being a LH is if someone at one time did a RH to a LH swap. We have given you several ideas on how to ID the rotation so take another look and if you can per Kens request post a picture of the front end of the trans showing the pump index position.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:11pm
What is the firing order??????????
1,2,3,4 are on the starboard side
5,6,7,8 are on port side
Looking down on the distributor cap & mark where #1 wire is, then mark the rest of them in a CCW rotation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by turboapache turboapache wrote:

I am in the process of rebuilding the eng.


Ken and Duane (or anyone),
Does a SBF have a wrist pin offset?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by turboapache turboapache wrote:

I am in the process of rebuilding the eng.


Ken and Duane (or anyone),
Does a SBF have a wrist pin offset?


Yes and No

TRW told me that a 302 is offset and pistons need to be reversed for a RR engine.
351 are not offset ++++ but I would verify before installing.

IIRC 302 are offset .060
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 1:35pm
Or a picture of the distributor gear would be pretty much foolproof
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Then a new prop should do it for you


Speed reading got me again. The first post explains it all. The current engine will indeed need a new prop. He says he has verified rotation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:49pm
If I remember right an oem Ford is not ofset, oem Chevy's are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

Speed reading got me again. The first post explains it all. The current engine will indeed need a new prop. He says he has verified rotation

Duane,
I'm not too sure. I too have reviewed the first post and others and am still not convinced the rotation has been confirmed. We'll see?? Remember, the engine and trans (1:1) came out of a SN.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

If I remember right an oem Ford is not ofset, oem Chevy's are.


Gary, I know for a fact (100% sure) that my 302 Ford pistons are offset .060.
Both my .040 pistons that I took out and my .060 oversize pistons that I installed after my rebore are .060 offset. I called the Guru at TRW to verify if the notch went to the front as in a car or to the rear as in a RR boat application. He stated that the notch goes to the rear for my RR engine. Again, remember that mine is a 302 SBF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 3:56pm
Don't doubt you Duane but those are aftermarket pistons. Basically you need to follow the piston manufacturers recommendations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 4:09pm

(But don't tell anybody that it is not 100% original).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turboapache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 7:50pm
After looking at the front pump I can see that the trans is indexed to turn right hand. Now I am confused. I need to do some more research on the parts that came out of the eng. such as the cam and distributor gear, and recheck the starter rotation. I noticed that the pump bolt pattern is not semetrical? I have a file on my computer that shows different views of the eng and trans as they were pulled from the other boat. I dont know how to upload the photos to this site. When we pulled the unit it was still in the aluminum cradle but we cut off the ski pole and it fit perfect in the fish and lined up perfect to the prop shaft. Thanks to anyone who can help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 8:33pm
Hi Harold

See the thread in the link below, lots of reading but there are pictures, diagrams and explanations.

The whole rotation thing can be real confusing but the thread may straighten things out.

If your pump says RH at the top then it's set for a normal rotation engine due to how Borg Warner looks at rotation. You should have an arrow near the RH stamping too.
It would be pointing to the right.

You would have a RH transmission for your normal LH rotation engine because B/W looks from the front and marine engine rotation is viewed from the back.

So.................I say you have a transmission set up for a normal rotation engine just like you thought

You may have to read the linked thread a couple or a few times to digest all the info

If you look at your distributor gear as another from of verification the teeth will slant like this for a LH engine /////// or like this \\\\\\ if you had a RH engine.


transmission link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turboapache Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 9:03pm
Just did some checking and all I see including the distrubitor gear and matching cam gear are the same as a automotive cam that I have here in the shop. The arrow at the top of the pump is going to the left as you view the pump straight on. Am I confused or does that not mean it is set up for a reverse rotation eng?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2018 at 9:26pm
The head of the arrow should be pointing to the right or clockwise or toward the port side of the boat for your normal rotation engine.

The distributor gear is telling you the engine is normal automotive rotation

The transmission arrow should point the same way that the engine rotates
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