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95' Nautique Project ... expanded

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    Posted: March-09-2018 at 9:37pm


Friday, March 9, 2018
7:34 PM

So as it turns out, I'm not going to be doing a head swap on the ol' girl after all.   Let's clarify: I won't ONLY be doing a head swap.   The story as follows:

Started disassembly of the exhaust manifolds, then the plenum & throttle body and noticed first that the valve covers didn't match. One appeared to be from a GT40, the other however IDK, but not from the same platform for sure. Continuing with the electronics removal and fuel rails I quickly realized this was going to be a bit more involved than I had anticipated because the under side of everything was oily, dirty and gritty - I'm more of a pristinely clean engine sort of guy so all that would have to be cleaned thoroughly. Next was the dozen or so wires that had been haphazardly spliced and left long, with mismatched colors no less.   So some wiring now too.   The real eye opener came after I removed the intake and got the first head off: reddish, chunky, flaking junk restricting at least half of the flow on all the water passages and one was completely blocked. I quickly flipped the exhaust manifolds over and yes, those too. Pulled the other head and same story except 2 of the passages were completely blocked. The more I dug into the engine, the more depressing it became. I'm reminded of a line in the movie Armageddon - " It's a *** #### Greek Tragedy !"

Hmmm…. What to do.   So after a few days of mulling over the options, I've come to the decision that my winter project just got a whole lot bigger.   Now it includes a full engine rebuild, starting with an all new block - this one isn't worth salvaging. I had planned on eventually going through the entire boat, just not all at once and not this soon. But recent events, and now this seem to have forced my hand. Not really a restoration as such because first, I'm not going to go to extremes like new gel coat and all new, original vinyl. Also because I'm not going 100% original - sorry Pete, Tim.   But I have made a list of what I believe are the key points that have to be addressed while I'm rebuilding the engine.   Here's the list, perhaps not in exact order:

     • Remove engine, transmission and all accessories
     • Clean and repaint bilge - This needed to be done eventually perhaps, but after the recent work performed at that "top notch" MC dealership, I was left with a disgusting mess (pictures later)
     • Remove carpet from flooring areas - yet another casualty of the recent "dealership repairs" - and install new carpet on floor area
     • Sand blast and powder coat all accessories and bolt-on engine parts
     • Re-wire and refurbish the electrical and ECM
     • Replace all motor mounts - Hours spend with a mini sledge and what seemed like a gallon of PB while clamped in a bench vise failed to break the originals free from their rusty, frozen state.
     • Remove poorly installed Cutlass and reinstall correctly
     • Install newly built engine, install and align engine & prop shaft
     • Install new exhaust hose with Y pipe, eliminating that gigantic, ugly muffler
     • Bolt on all front accessories and starter, including new alternator
Somewhere in there I'd like to replace the rub rail as well, just don't know exactly where that one will work in.

First start-up should be sometime in June, if I'm lucky. And if I don't get swamped with business.
So, wish me luck!   I'll be updating this post from time to time with pictures of progress and more than likely with questions for the CC public to help with, so thanks in advance!   
JCCI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-09-2018 at 11:06pm
Go get em tiger! I'm tuned in, still cold and snowy up here! Have you thought about your oil and filter choices?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-09-2018 at 11:28pm
PCM or Motorcraft filter most likely, unless someone chimes in with a reason to do otherwise. Oil, well I've read several thoughts on oil for your average seasoned engine. However, there are going to be break-in concerns with the new engine. Several articles, and some manufacturers I've read indicate that for the first 100 hours at a minimum I should be using either a high zinc content oil or a zinc additive to aid in proper break-in of the cam, lifters and the like.   Supposedly Rotella T4 is one of the only commercially available conventional oils that has a high enough zinc content. One way or another, I'll likely have at least another 2 months before I have to nail that one down. I figure at that time I'll have a whole lot of input from the site to draw from
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sport1999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-10-2018 at 6:53am
Guess I missed it, but what engine problems were you having? All your other work has been top notch. Post some pictures on the engine. Any indication. On why the spliced wires?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-10-2018 at 8:04am
You might want to consider a roller cam design, so you can skip the whole zddp issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smithfamily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-10-2018 at 8:34am
Pictures. Good luck. Block cant be saved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-10-2018 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by sport1999 sport1999 wrote:

Guess I missed it, but what engine problems were you having? All your other work has been top notch. Post some pictures on the engine. Any indication. On why the spliced wires?


Didn't really have engine problems, as such - well, at least I didn't think I did. After the accident last fall and the MC dealership debacle I decided to pull the engine and go ahead with swapping out all the motor mounts that were rusted solid. That would make it much easier to do all the rework on the cutlass and prop shaft and give me a chance to clean up the bilge and give it a fresh coat of paint. I had been planning to swap out the heads and do some exhaust work anyway - though not this year. So while I had the engine out, why not go ahead with the swap to the GT40p heads.   I suppose that's where the story picks up on this thread. If you missed the whole discussion about the accident and subsequent dealings with that unnamed dealership repair shop, you can read up on it and see some of their handy work for yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-10-2018 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by Smithfamily Smithfamily wrote:

Pictures. Good luck. Block cant be saved?


Well Mr. Smith .... In a word, no.   After pulling chunks and crusty debris from my old heads and then looking into the water passages in the block to find not only huge, thick flakes of rusty cylinder wall debris floating around, I decided I wasn't going to even chance putting it back together the way it was, let alone trying to pump up the power a bit. Certainly wouldn't have thought it had problems based on an external visual.

Anyway, I've been trying to upload some images for a couple days now and the site keeps telling me the 'disc' is full and won't let me proceed. So if anyone knows anything about that and can help, we can all see some photos.

JCCI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2018 at 10:21pm
Engine & interior is nearly out. Just pulled the fuel tank so carpet is next. Got down that far though and had even more surprises left me by the shop.





What a mess. And it's a good thing I didn't go out even once. That large punch could have made quite a mess really fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2018 at 10:41pm
So now that the photo upload utility seems to be working, I'll catch you folks up.
First, what I found when I pulled the first head:









And I hope that explains why I didn't want to even try to salvage the block. Nearly all of the water passages had at least a few large chunks of the cylinder walls floating around and there were 3 overall that were 100% blocked with that rusty sludge. Heads were just as bad, though I was going to swap them out anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2018 at 10:56pm
Starting the tear-down:







And then the removal:







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2018 at 8:40am
I would suspect your engine looks pretty much like every other raw water cooled engine in service out there with 25 years on it. Most make it another 25 without too much trouble - I might not put it back in a boat that I was putting a lot of time and money into - but I wouldn't scrap it either. I would probably pull the plugs clean it out a bit and pickle it for a backup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2018 at 9:23am
Joe (in Kansas)

Take a look at these 2 pictures, One is a real GT-40 head with casting number F3ZE-AA and the other (yours) is an imposter.

Compare the combustion chambers, especially around the intake valves

I had to clean my glasses, blow up the image to 500% and find the magnifying glass to read your casting number but it looks like E5AE-CA

It looks to me like you got some kind of mongrel engine there, like maybe a standard 240 HP 351 which commonly had those heads and somebody put the GT-40 injection on it.

At least we know the GT-40 ECM worked OK with a lower powered engine





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2018 at 11:48am
You've said you don't want to re-use the block, but your machine shop can "cook" it (which basically turns the scale and crud in the water passages) into dust. Then clean it out and either pressure test, sonic or both.
It may not be a doorstop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shierh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2018 at 11:49am
I would use the engine you have. nothing wrong with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2018 at 5:56pm
I agree with the block looks really good. The heads look to have been working well also.
Regardless what heads you decide to run when you build this engine that block is a valuable block unless you find it has been freeze damaged or some other major issue.
Did it use oil or smoke on acceleration?
You have it out so this is a great time to rebuild and upgrade if you wish but your block is a good core to build on not junk.
Look close at your piston heads, look for markings like 30 or .030, 40 or .040 on the piston head.   It may have been rebuilt once already. These markings would indicate what it was bored to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2018 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Joe (in Kansas)

Take a look at these 2 pictures, One is a real GT-40 head with casting number F3ZE-AA and the other (yours) is an imposter........
It looks to me like you got some kind of mongrel engine there, like maybe a standard 240 HP 351 which commonly had those heads and somebody put the GT-40 injection on it.

At least we know the GT-40 ECM worked OK with a lower powered engine


Yep, and yet another slap in the gut. Found that out when pulling the heads as well, though I hadn't mentioned it since I was planning to replace first the heads, then as it turned out, the entire thing.

Sounds like the general consensus is the block is good. Did I mention when we looked further down the water passages the cylinder wall tapered out, toward the piston? Couldn't get a mic down there at that point but it looked as if there was 1/8" or less of cylinder wall left in most places. I just don't feel good about using it for an increased HP option.
Besides, just swapping to GTp heads just isn't enough for me..... come on guys, you should know me better than that by now   
Think of me as the "Tim Taylor" of the boating world - boats instead of old hot rods    ( grunt grunt grunt ... MORE POWER !! )
Heck, my last boat was a 27' open bow runabout - small head compartment and all - and a 496HO wasn't enough. So I supercharged it & swapped the outdrive to a Bravo1 XR. 630HP and over 70mph. Not bad for a 6700 pound family boat

But in reality, I'm not going to go all out like that on the Nautique. I do however think that the boat was originally a 310hp boat, so if someone was dumb enough to toss in a std. 240 block, the least I'm going to do is bring it back up.
OK ... maybe just a bit more.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2018 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

... Did it use oil or smoke on acceleration?
You have it out so this is a great time to rebuild and upgrade if you wish but your block is a good core to build on not junk.
Look close at your piston heads, look for markings like 30 or .030, 40 or .040 on the piston head.   It may have been rebuilt once already. These markings would indicate what it was bored to.


No smoke and really tight. The PO said it had been rebuilt and only had 4 or 5 hours on it. Don't know about the 'rebuilt' part since so many of the externals were literally (rust) frozen in place, including the harmonic balancer and pulleys, and the front cover had 2 bolts that had rusted badly and someone had rounded them over trying to get them off. Thinking back, they guy had said the engine had a "refresh", which I took at the time to mean a rebuild. Could be they just honed the cylinders and put oversize rings. IDK, but the crank won't even spin by hand using the balancer, and it's very difficult with a 1/2" breakover.

Honestly, it probably is a usable engine for someone as is. I just really don't want to mess with it and definitely don't want to pump up the HP on it. But truthfully, I really HATE dirt and grime and rust and such in, on or around and engine. And especially a boat engine. So one way or another, this was going to be a lot more of a job, eventually anyway, than just swapping heads because this thing was absolutely filthy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2018 at 3:07am
Sounds like a cadidate for a new 408 Windsor for you. 351w will be too small!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2018 at 11:22pm
Now for a few before and after:







Pulled the driver's seat and batteries, then all the carpet and drove it to the car wash for a serious cleaning. Didn't think I'd ever get the dirt, grease and general grime in the bilge out of there
Next, going to use bilge cleaner and a brush to get it the rest of the way, then a couple good coats of bilge paint. New carpet is ordered (Christine's) and I should have it by early next week so that'll be at least one project for the following weekend.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2018 at 2:40am
The last few days I've been pulling the rest of the interior, removing the carpet from the sides and painting the bilge. Also been working to refurbish some of the engine bolt ons.





.

Also did the water pump but I guess I didn't download that pic. Tonight I started on the transmission case. I'd like to go through it's internals as well, but unfortunately that'll have to wait
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-17-2018 at 6:20pm
A few more pictures of the progress. Engine cradle stripped, primed and painted and transmission stripped and primed - Finish coats of transmission tomorrow. Last, the aforementioned water pump that I did one day last week.











Carpet for the floor arrived today, the material for the sides should be here Monday. I knew this was going to be a big job and take a while, then I started counting all the separate panel pieces. Wow, I think it's going to take a lot longer to do all the extra pieces than it will to install the sides and floor!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2018 at 6:01pm
Since it doesn't appear the weather is going to cooperate with my carpet installation, I've fallen back to more paint/ rust stripping and painting. Put the final coat of paint on the transmission and started on the throttle body/ electrical assembly. They are forecasting 80 degree weather by Friday, so hopefully I can get it done by Monday.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2018 at 6:16pm
Awesome. Love the silver grab rail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2018 at 6:25pm
Hi Joe

While your mounting cradle is out, do you think you could measure the centerline distances between the mounting holes in the front and the rear.?

A different thread has a question of whether the 1.23 to 1 and 1 to 1 B/W holes are spaced the same and this would help with info since the B/W info is available in manuals.

So the measurements would be

distance between front holes

distance between the rear holes

and distance between the front hole for the front mount and the rear hole for the rear mount

Thanks


Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2018 at 6:39pm
Front center to center is 4" exact
Rear center to center is 3 1/4"
Overall center to center is 23" exact
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2018 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by M3Fan M3Fan wrote:

Awesome. Love the silver grab rail.


Yeah, I like it much better now as well.   It had black paint (sort of, what was left of the paint anyway) and what appeared to be rust forming in various places so I figured it was merely chrome plated steel that had been painted or at least an inferior grade of stainless. Ugly, and I never liked it anyway - don't care for painted trim on a boat - but could never get to the mounting bolts to take it off.
Since I had the fuel tank out of the boat to replace the carpet I could actually get to those bolts and decided to do something about it. Took it to the bench grinder with a stainless wire wheel and was amazed when the paint and rusty looking stuff came right off with no trace of actual rust. Don't know what it really was, but it wasn't from the grab bar which apparently is high quality 316 - Beautiful
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2018 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

Front center to center is 4" exact
Rear center to center is 3 1/4"
Overall center to center is 23" exact


Thanks

We'll just call you FAST Joe from now on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fabcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2018 at 9:45pm
looking good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2018 at 2:51am
it is coming along well, nice work.
A tip on your engine water pump. If you plan to reuse a water pump always keep them in a bucket of water, antifreeze is better as it won't allow rust to form..
The seals can dry out when parked dry. Can't tell you how many times I have heard the story, I got it all back together and the water pump went out a month later.
I worked for Carter back when they had a Water Pump line, before that business all went to China.
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