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GT-40 will not start after changing fuel filter

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    Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:07pm
I have a 1998 PCM 5.8 Pro Boss GT-40 in my Sport Nautique. I changed the fuel filter, something I've done many times of course.   At first the boat started and I ran it around on the lake here for a few minutes. Then it would not start. I checked the Fuel Control Cell and it was full. After screwing on the Fuel Control Cell metal canister the boat ran for a few minutes but then while idling at the dock the boat shut down on its own. At this point I checked the Full Control Cell again and it is not filling up.

20 years of owning 1998-1999 GT-40's, three of them, and this one's got me stumped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:25pm
I would check and see if the low pressure fuel pump has voltage when you first turn on the key and if you do check the pump it's self. If it never has been changed it might be time they don't last forever. If it is bad check back there are alternative Carter pumps for a fraction of a PCM branded Carter pump
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:35pm
Gary can you tell me specifically how to test the low pressure pump for voltage? I do have experience with this sort of thing, I've even wired houses etc., but it has been years. I see the wires going around the bottom of the low pressure pump.

Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:38pm
And Gary for checking the pump itself....how to do that? I think I know but...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2018 at 8:31pm
You most likely will need 2 people just to make it easier but yes those terminals are + and ground. Connect a volt meter to them and have someone turn the key to run,you will get a couple of seconds of fuel pump run and voltage. The computer senses the engine not running yet so it shuts off voltage to the pumps. As to the pump itself if it has voltage I would remove it and just try running it on the bench being careful about fuel and sparks not mixing well. Carter P4389 is a replacement which can be found for around 60 on the internet vs 212 for a PCM branded Carter pump
Sometimes you have to cycle the key numerous times to fill the FCC though just because it does not run very long. Gas tank has gas in it right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2018 at 8:55pm
Also, should I hear the low pressure fuel pump prime when I turn the ignition on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2018 at 9:39pm
Yes but it might be hard to hear because both should turn on. You could unplug the FCC and then listen for the LP pump. There are two relays on the lower right of the ecm mounting plate, one powers the ecm the other the fuel pumps, they can give trouble too and it's easy to carry spares but if you hear a pump run when you turn on the key it should be ok.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-30-2018 at 9:48pm
Thanks for the replies. In the next couple of days I will go through some checks. I've been reading quite a bit here on the forums as to past problems/posts. One more thing, should you read this later, I did put the battery back in the boat today---- and also my ignition switch had loosened so I took off the 4 screws holding the instrument cover, pulled it out a little, and reached under the corner to tighten it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2018 at 10:56am
OK, so this morning I turn the key on and hear nothing. I can't get a reading on the volt meter either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2018 at 11:35am
Can't get volt reading at low pressure fuel pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2018 at 3:06pm
The relays circled in the lower right of this picture are the two that provide power to the ECM and to both fuel pumps. It is the easiest to unplug them and switch them. Then check and see if the pumps turn on with the key again. If they then run you just need new ones,you can get the number off them and purchase at your favorite place.
You can click on the pic to make it bigger---

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2018 at 9:10pm
Thanks again Gary. I will do that tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2018 at 11:20pm
I'm having a hard time following your sequence of events in your description of the problem so I could be totally out to lunch or..............maybe not..

Since you tightened your ignition switch has the engine run?

It sounds to me like maybe you caused the problem when you played with the switch. Pulling the panel out a little and reaching under the corner to tighten it, sounds like a good way to break a wire or weaken it enough that it broke shortly after

I think it's worth a look at the connections on the back of the key switch

If you broke/disconnected the purple wire attached to the switch, it would prevent you from getting power to both fuel pumps and the ECM and the engine won't run

Is it safe to assume you found wiring diagrams in the GT-40 manual during your reading of stuff on CCF in the last few days?

Like I said, I could be totally out to lunch but it's worth checking.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:45am

Also just swapping one relay for the other won't tell you anything because you need 2 good relays to get power to the fuel pumps.

Power has to pass thru the EEC relay (#13) to actuate the fuel pump relay (#19) as you can see in the diagram below from an old Lewy2001 post


Originally posted by lewy2001 lewy2001 wrote:

John this should clear it up a picture.
Forgot I had uploaded this picture to site. Also just uploaded the fuel pump circuit diagram. This diagram shows the EEC computer wiring as well.
If you do not know how to jumper the STO. Check it out in AMB's Fuel supply thread is on one of the early pages. The STO connector is that black shell marked EEC test covering the wiring connector next to the cct breakers and above the relays.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:33am
OK, with some assistance I find that yes I am getting power to the low pressure fuel pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:39am
Sorry I have misinformed Gary/Keno, but I tried to hold my power meter and turn the key at the same time by myself initially.

Keno, yes the boat did briefly start and run after I messed under the dash. I did raise the dash, lay on my back, and check for anything like disconnects that I may have done tightening the key switch. Found nothing.

So yes power is to the low pressure fuel pump. But the fuel control cell will not fill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:41am
Did the pump run or just do nothing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 12:00pm
If it didn't run, Gary's advice below sounds like a plan

At least you know your relays are good.

Too bad it wasn't a broken wire, it would have been easier and cheaper   

Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

. As to the pump itself if it has voltage I would remove it and just try running it on the bench being careful about fuel and sparks not mixing well. Carter P4389 is a replacement which can be found for around 60 on the internet vs 212 for a PCM branded Carter pump
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 12:52pm
And thanks Keno as I'll now take Gary's suggestion as to running it on a bench.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:11pm
When power hits the low pressure pump it does work. So back to the relays...

When I turn the key power is coming in to the right relay on one of the 4 terminals. There is constant power at one other terminal out of the 4.

On the other relay there is power coming in at one terminal of the relay only. When the key is turned on power does not come to another one of the 4 relay terminals.

So when the key is turned if power is only supposed to come into one terminal of one relay as is the case with my situation, then it pretty much can be assumed (I am assuming/guessing here) that the relay is broken. If power is supposed to come into both relays when the key is turned then the problem is before the relay.

I would guess that key sourced power is only supposed to come to one relay and I can go get a replacement tomorrow.

Keno/Gary, do you guys have anything you can add? Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:50pm
Don''t screw around, buy 2 relays and replace them both

The EEC relay passes actuating power to the fuel pump relay along with supplying the EEC computer.

Little hard to understand what you're saying but I think you're thinking right.

It seems like you have contradicting info from one post to the next about power to the low pressure pump.

Just replace both relays as part of your troubleshooting, that way nobody will accuse you of just throwing parts at it.

They're cheap so like I said get two.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:59pm
Keno I have contradicted, sorry to have done that. But when I checked "the power" to the fuel pump I did get a reading, but in trying to both turn the key and hold the power meter contacts to the low pressure fuel pump I was not able to see precisely what the reading was. Evidently it wasn't anywhere close to 12 volts because the pump would not run. As soon as I did put a battery next to the pump and get two wires to it the thing worked perfectly.   So my posts about power getting to the pump were incorrect.

I will get two relays tomorrow. I appreciate the help. I have over the years gotten to know my boats pretty well, yet so much time passes (thankfully) between problems I often forget everything I evidently once knew fairly well a long time ago.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 10:29pm
I'm gonna boldly predict that you'll solve your issue with the new relays

At least I hope you do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 10:49pm
Be sure to do any electric fuel pump tests while the pump is hooked to fuel.   These are fuel lubricated pumps and can be damaged if run dry. In 10 seconds a pump motor can be damaged when run dry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:00pm
MrMcD I did the test with the fuel pump on the boat connected to the fuel line so I think I'm ok there. Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2018 at 4:03pm
Gary/Keno/MrMcD I'd like to convey my thanks for your patient help . With the replacement of both...replacing either one only did not work...relays the boat immediately cranked up. Getting ready to shove it into the water. I find it hard thinking that both relays were bad but it looks like maybe that was the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2018 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

I'm gonna boldly predict that you'll solve your issue with the new relays

At least I hope you do


Too bad I can't predict a lot of other things

Good job, funny how you can change one thing and have something else fail at the same time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2018 at 5:48pm
My boat has the same relays, do they fail often? Are spares needed on board?
To date my engine has not missed a beat but it is 23 years old?
I do agree it is very odd they both failed at the same time maybe there was an electrical spike?
Glad you got it running and nice work once again Keno.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2018 at 7:53pm
I think they're reliable.............till you have a problem. But seriously very reliable.

They're the same relays that get used for auxiliary lights etc. and they were also in the underhood relay/fuse boxes in lots of cars and had a pile of other uses. They're easy to find at about any car parts store if you know what to look for..

Considering that you can find them at a variety of prices with even the high priced ones being pretty reasonable, I'd carry 2 spares for sure.

A Hella part number is 960388-31 and can be cross referenced to lots of cheaper ones.

I'm cheap so I visit a friend of mine with a junkyard and rummage around under the hoods of cars headed for the crusher and rescue them to use for various different projects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2018 at 9:33pm
Always nice to see the positive outcomes from the brains of CCF. It’s what brought me to CCF and owning a Correct Craft boat.
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