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De-winterizing startup trouble

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    Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:10am
Starting the season and already have an issue right out of the gate. I'm running it out of the water to change some fluids and having some hard starts. The battery is newer, but can't guarantee the state of the charge. I also don't like how the main leads are attached to the battery, but didn't have an issue w/ that last year so won't bring that into the equation. I'm using garden hose attachment in the T to feed the system.

Issues on startup in order:
1. SLOOOW to crank. Thought the battery didn't have the charge, and then it just caught and took off. Lot of white smoke initially. Good after that.    

2. No smoke. Can only describe as a grinding noise. As i hold the start button, i see all the pulleys slowly turning, but sloow. Probably holding about 4 secs of that noise, it starts. I can't tell if the noise is a starter cranking noise or something locked up in the pulley chain, such as the alternator. .Found the belt lose after initial run on the water pump. (changed the water impeller this morning). Tightened.

3. First attempt all i got was a click. Hit the off button, Re-tried holding start button. Same grinding issue that leads to a start and runs fine after that.

If it's a starter, I don't know where to begin, other than simply swapping out for a new one. If it's something seized on the belt system, i'd be surprised (but not shocked) as everything worked when i put it away for the winter and I didn't experience the issue on the first startup.

Anyone experience anything like this? Thanks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:16am
Get a volt meter, also maybe a battery charger.

In the mean time try using the battery from your car or truck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:53am
Just hooked up my battery charger. 225a startup. Just talked to my father, apparently 225a startup isn't recommended for marine batteries. Lesson learned

While it didn't take as long to start. The grinding was still there. Sounds fine when running so makes me think it's not any pulley seized. Going to attempt to upload a sound clip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:10am
Grinding noise - with charger hooked up.
youtube_gt40_grinding
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:19am
If you think a pulley is going to slow down a v8 you are wrong but take both belts off and see for yourself. Hook up the hose water T like normal. Water will flow through a non spinning pump but I wouldn't run it more than a 30 seconds.

I haven't listened to the sound clip yet but is your prop spinning? A little dirty neutral and dry cutlass is not a happy noise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:27am
Watched the video, not detecting any weird grinding. Also completely lost as to why your father is worried about 225 amp start mode on your battery.

There are marine cranking batteries (car batteries with threaded studs) and there are marine deep cycle batteries. I suspect you might have a deep cycle based on your issues, which is bad. This could have damaged your relay and possibly starter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:42am
Yea, I have a OPtima blue top, deep cycle.

The noise i'm referring to occurs at about secs 6-8. I agree, doesn't sound as much like a grinding noise in the video, but it's definitely a noise i'm not used to hearing. Took longer to catch to w/o the charger, so that's not helping for video purposes.

Oh, forgot to mention, i sure hope the prop isn't spinning. Has to be in neutral to start. Should be in neutral.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 2:13am
Deep cycle batteries are for trolling motors, water pumps and stereos, not cranking v8s.

Dirty neutral is prop spinning while the shifter is in neutral. I hope the prop isn't spinning but it would be good to check. If it is hose it down, that might be your noise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 7:58am
Peter,
Did you clean your battery posts and the battery cable terminals with a wire type cleaner designed for the job? Do, as mentioned use a starting type battery. Why the deep cycle?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 9:24am
I heard the grind. Could be the teeth or bendix on starter. You could take the starter off & inspect the gears & also have it tested at a electrical shop. Be sure & disconnect battery 1st.

Another plan would be to ignore it for now & see if it gets worse. Then it will be obvious what the problem is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smithfamily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 9:36am
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

I heard the grind. Could be the teeth or bendix on starter. You could take the starter off & inspect the gears & also have it tested at a electrical shop. Be sure & disconnect battery 1st.

Another plan would be to ignore it for now & see if it gets worse. Then it will be obvious what the problem is.

I agree with this.
. Perhaps a rusted Bendix gear (Starter) Could pull and inspect. However the dirty neutral prop spin is also a good call? Sounds great once its started!! Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 10:15am
Originally posted by shouse shouse wrote:

I also don't like how the main leads are attached to the battery, but didn't have an issue w/ that last year so won't bring that into the equation.
GT-40

What's the concern with the termination?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 11:40am
I purchases the blue-top because that's what was on the boat when i purchased it. I have no idea why i didn't search the forums 'recommended battery' before going out and purchasing a new one when the last one failed on me last year. This battery has the main thick gauge battery posts and then the threaded bolt terminals.

The main ground lead is hooked up to the thick post, however the positive main lead is crimped onto a large eye-ring connector and thumb screwed down onto the threaded bolt terminal (along w/ a few other accessories).

What battery DO you recommend? I'm guessing it doesn't need to be marine grade?

Appreciate those that did respond and heard it. I know i'm not crazy (yet)
Sounds like I might have a little time to figure it out and see how the problem grows. It is a little surprising to me that first start of the season it didn't occur, and from then on, it is consistent. Do agree, sounds good once started,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 11:48am
.
Quote
I agree with this.
. Perhaps a rusted Bendix gear (Starter) Could pull and inspect. However the dirty neutral prop spin is also a good call? Sounds great once its started!! Good luck.


Ok, i still don't understand this dirty neutral prop spin. As far as i'm aware, i can only start the boat when it's in locked-out neutral. I didn't touch the shifter after it's started, so assuming there is no possibility of it happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by shouse shouse wrote:

Yea, I have a OPtima blue top, deep cycle.


Just FYI -- Optima BLUE top is not a dedicated deep cycle battery.   The blue tops are dual purpose - basically a redesigned cranking battery that allows for moderate deep cycle use.   Unless your battery is damaged or very old, you would not have any issues using that battery for cranking. I have had Blue tops in my boats for years and never had a problem. When they start to get old, they have a rather steep drop-off though and they don't weather winter storage very well - you have to remove them (from a freezing environment) and keep them on a trickle charge and they'll last 5 or 6 years.
The Optima Yellow top batteries are the deep cycle only. Those shouldn't be used for anything other than a house battery for amplifiers and accessories.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by shouse shouse wrote:


Ok, i still don't understand this dirty neutral prop spin. As far as i'm aware, i can only start the boat when it's in locked-out neutral. I didn't touch the shifter after it's started, so assuming there is no possibility of it happening.


"Dirty neutral" is where the power transfers through to the output shaft slightly, even though the transmission is in neutral. Others can clarify since I don't know anything about transmissions, but from what I understand it is usually not an adjustable thing you'd actually have to have it repaired/ rebuilt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by shouse shouse wrote:

.[QUOTE]
Ok, i still don't understand this dirty neutral prop spin. As far as i'm aware, i can only start the boat when it's in locked-out neutral. I didn't touch the shifter after it's started, so assuming there is no possibility of it happening.

A "dirty neutral" has nothing to do with the shift position. The prop spinning when the trans is in the neutral position is caused by the clutch plates dragging. In most cases, the drag is from warped clutch plates and typical from an overheating at one time.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by shouse shouse wrote:

The main ground lead is hooked up to the thick post, however the positive main lead is crimped onto a large eye-ring connector and thumb screwed down onto the threaded bolt terminal (along w/ a few other accessories).   

Some prefer to use the post type termination of battery cables but, if done correctly a ring lug on a threaded stud is fine in my opinion. My 64 and my 54 have ring terminals and I have never had any problems. Take a good look at the ring lug and see if it was crimped to the cable properly with a crimping tool. Check for corrosion inside the crimp. Clean all the rings and the stud area of any corrosion and using some dielectric grease is always a good idea.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

Just FYI -- Optima BLUE top is not a dedicated deep cycle battery.   The blue tops are dual purpose

Not necessarily true.

Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

The Optima Yellow top batteries are the deep cycle only.

Also not necessarily true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

Just FYI -- Optima BLUE top is not a dedicated deep cycle battery.   The blue tops are dual purpose

Not necessarily true.

Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

The Optima Yellow top batteries are the deep cycle only.

Also not necessarily true.


OK, I stand corrected....   I don't currently have Optimas and its been a while since I looked at their options.   The blue top marine options used to be only available in dual purpose and the Yellows were only deep cycle. Now it seems they offer cranking also in blue and dual purpose in yellow as well as deep cycle.   Sorry for the mis-information.
I guess it is down to looking at your specific battery as the blue vs yellow doesn't mean what it used to
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:33pm
Joe,
Yes, it seems things have changed with the Optima's and if I remember correctly, it was after the company was bought out I also understand from reports they aren't as good as they once where ether. When I bought the Tique, it came with a brand new red top and it lasted 3 seasons. I've had normal automotive starting batteries last longer than 3 years and the reason I always suggest just sticking with them.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fabcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 2:05pm
Yes I heard some where the Optima battery's weren't as good as they used to be, hold on a minute that was on here, any way I have a Optima Blue top cranking battery in mine going on 6 years still doing good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 3:40pm
Cleaning terminals this morning. Was surprised to find my starter connections corroded over again after just cleaning near the end of last season. Am i missing bolt in the engine block right behind the starter??????????

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 4:20pm
Those threads are for a starter support bracket

After a cranking session, feel which positive and gnd connections and cables are uncharacteristically warmer than the others
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2018 at 1:40am
Originally posted by shouse shouse wrote:

Cleaning terminals this morning. Was surprised to find my starter connections corroded over again after just cleaning near the end of last season.


Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

using some dielectric grease is always a good idea.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OptimaJim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2018 at 12:29pm
Hello, I've been reading quite a bit of conflicting information about our batteries and wanted to help clarify things. Any BlueTop battery made by Optima will have no trouble starting any engine that comes in a Nautique. We have four different BlueTops in three different sizes-

34M- Dark gray case, this is essentially the marine version of our RedTop starting battery
D34M- Light gray case, this battery can be used in deep-cycle & starting applications
D27M- Light gray case & larger than the Group 34s, this can be used in deep-cycle or starting applications
D31M- Light gray case & larger than the 27, this can be used in deep-cycle or starting applications

As you can tell from those descriptions, any Optima battery with a light gray case can be used for starting or deep-cycle use, which includes all of our YellowTop batteries. Internally, the YellowTops are identical to the BlueTops with the light gray cases. The only differences are the threaded terminals for marine & RV applications and the two-year warranty that comes on BlueTops vs three years on most YellowTops.

Why the shorter warranty? Because guys like Pete store their boat without properly-maintaining their battery, allowing a partially-discharged battery to sulfate while in storage. When they decide to pull it out of storage, they hit what is probably a 50Ah battery with a 225-amp charge, potentially cooking the battery and shortening the lifespan.

If our batteries fail because of something we did wrong in the way we built them, those issues will typically manifest themselves well within the first few months of use, if not the first few weeks. Beyond that, battery lifespan largely correlates to how a battery is used and maintained when not in use. That's pretty much the case for every manufacturer and brand. We'll take the hit for the warranty hit on BlueTops for the first two years and many of the "bad" batteries returned to us under warranty are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly-recharged. Beyond the first two years, handing out warranty batteries every Spring, because someone didn't properly-maintain their battery over the winter only makes the price go up for everyone. Other brands deal with the same issues and some of them will even void your warranty if you bring back a deeply-discharged battery, so be sure to read the fine print before making a purchase or seeking warranty service on some of those brands.

If you deeply-discharge your battery listening to the stereo on a sandbar on a regular basis, it won't last as long as a battery that only gets used to start an engine. If you keep your battery fully-charged (~13.0-13.2V for BlueTops) whenever possible, it will probably last longer than if you put it into storage partially-discharged and don't think about charging it until several months later, when you want to bring it back out of storage.

Even if you don't have access to electricity where you store your boat, if you just fully-charge and completely disconnect the battery and then top it off when you bring it out of storage and before you try to start your boat, you'll be in pretty good shape for a while. You may even save yourself some unwanted headaches. On my '97 Sport Nautique, the hour meter ran whenever the ignition button was turned on, even if the boat was just sitting in the dealership lot after getting serviced   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2018 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by OptimaJim OptimaJim wrote:

Because guys like Pete store their boat without properly-maintaining their battery, allowing a partially-discharged battery to sulfate while in storage. When they decide to pull it out of storage, they hit what is probably a 50Ah battery with a 225-amp charge, potentially cooking the battery and shortening the lifespan.
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Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

. When I bought the Tique, it came with a brand new red top and it lasted 3 seasons. I've had normal automotive starting batteries last longer than 3 years and the reason I always suggest just sticking with them.

I treated my Optima the same as I treat my automotive batteries.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2018 at 1:03pm
You have to admit Pete the sound system you have in the Atom makes Quinners look like a 60's transistor radio
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Gary,
Yes, I was very impressed with the sound I get out of it. The biggest challenge was working with the 6 volts system! My next upgrade will be the speakers on the newly installed tower.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2018 at 2:09pm
Well thanks Jim ... I feel somewhat vindicated. Although a few things have changed since I had 2 D31's and a Yellow top D34 in my big Chaparral, I didn't think that things had changed that much. BTW, I replaced the cheap dealer installed batteries with those Optimas mid-summer two years after I bought the boat. They were still going strong when I sold the boat 5 years later
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