De-winterizing startup trouble |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:10am |
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Starting the season and already have an issue right out of the gate. I'm running it out of the water to change some fluids and having some hard starts. The battery is newer, but can't guarantee the state of the charge. I also don't like how the main leads are attached to the battery, but didn't have an issue w/ that last year so won't bring that into the equation. I'm using garden hose attachment in the T to feed the system.
Issues on startup in order: 1. SLOOOW to crank. Thought the battery didn't have the charge, and then it just caught and took off. Lot of white smoke initially. Good after that. 2. No smoke. Can only describe as a grinding noise. As i hold the start button, i see all the pulleys slowly turning, but sloow. Probably holding about 4 secs of that noise, it starts. I can't tell if the noise is a starter cranking noise or something locked up in the pulley chain, such as the alternator. .Found the belt lose after initial run on the water pump. (changed the water impeller this morning). Tightened. 3. First attempt all i got was a click. Hit the off button, Re-tried holding start button. Same grinding issue that leads to a start and runs fine after that. If it's a starter, I don't know where to begin, other than simply swapping out for a new one. If it's something seized on the belt system, i'd be surprised (but not shocked) as everything worked when i put it away for the winter and I didn't experience the issue on the first startup. Anyone experience anything like this? Thanks 2000 AIr Nautique GT-40 |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13510 |
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Get a volt meter, also maybe a battery charger.
In the mean time try using the battery from your car or truck. |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Just hooked up my battery charger. 225a startup. Just talked to my father, apparently 225a startup isn't recommended for marine batteries. Lesson learned
While it didn't take as long to start. The grinding was still there. Sounds fine when running so makes me think it's not any pulley seized. Going to attempt to upload a sound clip. |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Grinding noise - with charger hooked up.
youtube_gt40_grinding |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13510 |
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If you think a pulley is going to slow down a v8 you are wrong but take both belts off and see for yourself. Hook up the hose water T like normal. Water will flow through a non spinning pump but I wouldn't run it more than a 30 seconds.
I haven't listened to the sound clip yet but is your prop spinning? A little dirty neutral and dry cutlass is not a happy noise. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13510 |
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Watched the video, not detecting any weird grinding. Also completely lost as to why your father is worried about 225 amp start mode on your battery.
There are marine cranking batteries (car batteries with threaded studs) and there are marine deep cycle batteries. I suspect you might have a deep cycle based on your issues, which is bad. This could have damaged your relay and possibly starter. |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Yea, I have a OPtima blue top, deep cycle.
The noise i'm referring to occurs at about secs 6-8. I agree, doesn't sound as much like a grinding noise in the video, but it's definitely a noise i'm not used to hearing. Took longer to catch to w/o the charger, so that's not helping for video purposes. Oh, forgot to mention, i sure hope the prop isn't spinning. Has to be in neutral to start. Should be in neutral. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13510 |
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Deep cycle batteries are for trolling motors, water pumps and stereos, not cranking v8s.
Dirty neutral is prop spinning while the shifter is in neutral. I hope the prop isn't spinning but it would be good to check. If it is hose it down, that might be your noise. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Peter,
Did you clean your battery posts and the battery cable terminals with a wire type cleaner designed for the job? Do, as mentioned use a starting type battery. Why the deep cycle? |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I heard the grind. Could be the teeth or bendix on starter. You could take the starter off & inspect the gears & also have it tested at a electrical shop. Be sure & disconnect battery 1st.
Another plan would be to ignore it for now & see if it gets worse. Then it will be obvious what the problem is. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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Smithfamily
Platinum Member Joined: December-26-2007 Location: Orlando, Fl Status: Offline Points: 1602 |
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I agree with this. . Perhaps a rusted Bendix gear (Starter) Could pull and inspect. However the dirty neutral prop spin is also a good call? Sounds great once its started!! Good luck. |
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Js
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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What's the concern with the termination? |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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I purchases the blue-top because that's what was on the boat when i purchased it. I have no idea why i didn't search the forums 'recommended battery' before going out and purchasing a new one when the last one failed on me last year. This battery has the main thick gauge battery posts and then the threaded bolt terminals.
The main ground lead is hooked up to the thick post, however the positive main lead is crimped onto a large eye-ring connector and thumb screwed down onto the threaded bolt terminal (along w/ a few other accessories). What battery DO you recommend? I'm guessing it doesn't need to be marine grade? Appreciate those that did respond and heard it. I know i'm not crazy (yet) Sounds like I might have a little time to figure it out and see how the problem grows. It is a little surprising to me that first start of the season it didn't occur, and from then on, it is consistent. Do agree, sounds good once started, |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Ok, i still don't understand this dirty neutral prop spin. As far as i'm aware, i can only start the boat when it's in locked-out neutral. I didn't touch the shifter after it's started, so assuming there is no possibility of it happening. |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Just FYI -- Optima BLUE top is not a dedicated deep cycle battery. The blue tops are dual purpose - basically a redesigned cranking battery that allows for moderate deep cycle use. Unless your battery is damaged or very old, you would not have any issues using that battery for cranking. I have had Blue tops in my boats for years and never had a problem. When they start to get old, they have a rather steep drop-off though and they don't weather winter storage very well - you have to remove them (from a freezing environment) and keep them on a trickle charge and they'll last 5 or 6 years. The Optima Yellow top batteries are the deep cycle only. Those shouldn't be used for anything other than a house battery for amplifiers and accessories. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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"Dirty neutral" is where the power transfers through to the output shaft slightly, even though the transmission is in neutral. Others can clarify since I don't know anything about transmissions, but from what I understand it is usually not an adjustable thing you'd actually have to have it repaired/ rebuilt. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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A "dirty neutral" has nothing to do with the shift position. The prop spinning when the trans is in the neutral position is caused by the clutch plates dragging. In most cases, the drag is from warped clutch plates and typical from an overheating at one time. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Some prefer to use the post type termination of battery cables but, if done correctly a ring lug on a threaded stud is fine in my opinion. My 64 and my 54 have ring terminals and I have never had any problems. Take a good look at the ring lug and see if it was crimped to the cable properly with a crimping tool. Check for corrosion inside the crimp. Clean all the rings and the stud area of any corrosion and using some dielectric grease is always a good idea. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13510 |
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Not necessarily true.
Also not necessarily true. |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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OK, I stand corrected.... I don't currently have Optimas and its been a while since I looked at their options. The blue top marine options used to be only available in dual purpose and the Yellows were only deep cycle. Now it seems they offer cranking also in blue and dual purpose in yellow as well as deep cycle. Sorry for the mis-information. I guess it is down to looking at your specific battery as the blue vs yellow doesn't mean what it used to |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Joe,
Yes, it seems things have changed with the Optima's and if I remember correctly, it was after the company was bought out I also understand from reports they aren't as good as they once where ether. When I bought the Tique, it came with a brand new red top and it lasted 3 seasons. I've had normal automotive starting batteries last longer than 3 years and the reason I always suggest just sticking with them. |
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Fabcon
Gold Member Joined: August-27-2012 Location: Buffalo. Mn Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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Yes I heard some where the Optima battery's weren't as good as they used to be, hold on a minute that was on here, any way I have a Optima Blue top cranking battery in mine going on 6 years still doing good
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1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort
1984 Barefoot Nautique (Parting Out) |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Cleaning terminals this morning. Was surprised to find my starter connections corroded over again after just cleaning near the end of last season. Am i missing bolt in the engine block right behind the starter??????????
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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Those threads are for a starter support bracket
After a cranking session, feel which positive and gnd connections and cables are uncharacteristically warmer than the others |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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OptimaJim
Newbie Joined: April-01-2011 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Hello, I've been reading quite a bit of conflicting information about our batteries and wanted to help clarify things. Any BlueTop battery made by Optima will have no trouble starting any engine that comes in a Nautique. We have four different BlueTops in three different sizes-
34M- Dark gray case, this is essentially the marine version of our RedTop starting battery D34M- Light gray case, this battery can be used in deep-cycle & starting applications D27M- Light gray case & larger than the Group 34s, this can be used in deep-cycle or starting applications D31M- Light gray case & larger than the 27, this can be used in deep-cycle or starting applications As you can tell from those descriptions, any Optima battery with a light gray case can be used for starting or deep-cycle use, which includes all of our YellowTop batteries. Internally, the YellowTops are identical to the BlueTops with the light gray cases. The only differences are the threaded terminals for marine & RV applications and the two-year warranty that comes on BlueTops vs three years on most YellowTops. Why the shorter warranty? Because guys like Pete store their boat without properly-maintaining their battery, allowing a partially-discharged battery to sulfate while in storage. When they decide to pull it out of storage, they hit what is probably a 50Ah battery with a 225-amp charge, potentially cooking the battery and shortening the lifespan. If our batteries fail because of something we did wrong in the way we built them, those issues will typically manifest themselves well within the first few months of use, if not the first few weeks. Beyond that, battery lifespan largely correlates to how a battery is used and maintained when not in use. That's pretty much the case for every manufacturer and brand. We'll take the hit for the warranty hit on BlueTops for the first two years and many of the "bad" batteries returned to us under warranty are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly-recharged. Beyond the first two years, handing out warranty batteries every Spring, because someone didn't properly-maintain their battery over the winter only makes the price go up for everyone. Other brands deal with the same issues and some of them will even void your warranty if you bring back a deeply-discharged battery, so be sure to read the fine print before making a purchase or seeking warranty service on some of those brands. If you deeply-discharge your battery listening to the stereo on a sandbar on a regular basis, it won't last as long as a battery that only gets used to start an engine. If you keep your battery fully-charged (~13.0-13.2V for BlueTops) whenever possible, it will probably last longer than if you put it into storage partially-discharged and don't think about charging it until several months later, when you want to bring it back out of storage. Even if you don't have access to electricity where you store your boat, if you just fully-charge and completely disconnect the battery and then top it off when you bring it out of storage and before you try to start your boat, you'll be in pretty good shape for a while. You may even save yourself some unwanted headaches. On my '97 Sport Nautique, the hour meter ran whenever the ignition button was turned on, even if the boat was just sitting in the dealership lot after getting serviced Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I treated my Optima the same as I treat my automotive batteries. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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You have to admit Pete the sound system you have in the Atom makes Quinners look like a 60's transistor radio
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Gary,
Yes, I was very impressed with the sound I get out of it. The biggest challenge was working with the 6 volts system! My next upgrade will be the speakers on the newly installed tower. |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Well thanks Jim ... I feel somewhat vindicated. Although a few things have changed since I had 2 D31's and a Yellow top D34 in my big Chaparral, I didn't think that things had changed that much. BTW, I replaced the cheap dealer installed batteries with those Optimas mid-summer two years after I bought the boat. They were still going strong when I sold the boat 5 years later
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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