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Windsor or Cleveland

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjgha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Windsor or Cleveland
    Posted: July-13-2018 at 10:44am
Hello,

Can anyone tell me if my boat engine is a 351 Windsor or Cleveland what exactly the difference is?

I have a SN CC 95 with a PCM gt-40 5.8 EFI.

Hope this is enough info.

Thanks,

Ethan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2018 at 11:02am
Short, simple answer It's a Windsor.

You gave enough info

You can google Windsor vs Cleveland and you'll get plenty of info on the differences
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Orlando76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:23pm
From what I understand no marinizer ever used a Cleveland yet 25% of the boats listed online are Cleveland’s and good luck convincing otherwise. Even in the automotive world Cleveland’s are very rare and that reduced in a rather small time frame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rebel skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:30pm
There a boat for sale on our site that is a Celvor which is supposedly a combination of the two:

SN2001 with a Celvor block
Hotty Toddy lets go skiing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:55pm
Commander marinized a Clevor around that timeframe but that 86 does not have one. There was a mid 80’s American Skier that popped up in the last year that did. If you do a google image search for a commander Clevor, you’ll find some mid-late 80’s waterski ads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:57pm
Clevors are rare but there are some out there.

Celvors are ..........................well you know
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArtCozier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 11:06am
Back when we played around with those engines, it was my understanding that the base engines were built in Australia. They were found to be unsuitable for CC's applications.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by ArtCozier ArtCozier wrote:

They were found to be unsuitable for CC's applications.


Art,
Do you remember why?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArtCozier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by ArtCozier ArtCozier wrote:

They were found to be unsuitable for CC's applications.


Art,
Do you remember why?


As best I recall, the biggest problem was oil consumption. I wasn't direct involved, but I understood that on those engines, the valves could not be located directly in line with the cam lobes and lifters, so the push rods were at a slight angle. That apparently caused the rockers to put some side thrust on the valves, and the valve guides would wear prematurely.
Apparently the engines were Cleveland blocks with Windsor heads on them, or maybe the reverse of that
Sometimes I get those experiments confused with our experiments with the Triton engine when the 351W was on its way out. We had a couple of catastrophic failures with those at sustained high RPM.    (PCM did all of the marinization work in both cases)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:34pm
Thanks Art. It's always great to hear some CC history.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:59pm
I can see using them in something like a Donzi where high output at high rpm is desired but for a ski tug where torque is desired why bother -the Windsor fit the bill already.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 1:05pm
A very technical, scientific way to identify is the valve covers.....Windsors use 6 bolts, while Clevelands use 8.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArtCozier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by MourningWood MourningWood wrote:

A very technical, scientific way to identify is the valve covers.....Windsors use 6 bolts, while Clevelands use 8.


I have been told that another way is that the two fuel pump mounting bolts are vertical to each other on the Cleve and horizontal on the Win. Do you know whether that is so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 2:22pm
The water outlet at the intake is like that Art maybe that’s what your thinking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 2:40pm
Or maybe he's thinking fuel pumps

Here's a351C or M fuel pump


link     

The Clevor takes a 351W fuel pump though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by ArtCozier ArtCozier wrote:


...Apparently the engines were Cleveland blocks with Windsor heads on them, or maybe the reverse of that ....


You probably have it correct. American Ford stopped producing the 351c sometime in the mid 70's so the Australian Ford manufacturer was the the only one producing them for a while. I don't remember when they stopped building them, but if memory serves they used smaller valve heads, which is why they weren't very popular here since you'd have to swap heads to get decent flow and thus, power.   Everyone always said that the Windsor had a stronger bottom end anyway so if you had to start swapping parts, why not just start with the readily available Windsor.   I had an old classic Mustang back in the day - my first hot rodding experience       (didn't keep it all original either)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 4:17pm
Wat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 4:27pm
The Clevor engine IE: Windsor block with Cleveland heads. The primary reason was the larger valves in the Cleveland heads. The Australian "Cleveland" heads were a completely different head made for the aftermarket.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 5:11pm
Interesting read Pete ...   When was it that these first came out? Don't recall ever hearing about them. Of course the Mustang was the last Ford I owned till I bought my first diesel P/U in the mid-late 80's and by then the hot rodding days were long since over   (wife, kids, work ....)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by gt40KS gt40KS wrote:

Interesting read Pete ...   When was it that these first came out? )

Joe,
I don't know! With all the talk about the Clevor,I simply went searching for the info. I like you found it an interesting read.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2018 at 6:43pm
Yeah, google. So many years without all the information you ever wanted to know about anything .... And now it's a wonder we ever got along without it.

Anyway, after reading about the Clevor I decided to google Ausie Cleveland's and discovered they did in fact make a larger valve version. It was the first year or two they only had the small valve heads and offered both small and large thereafter. Funny though, I had always heard that the Cleveland was more of a big block vs the small block Windsor.   I guess it wasn't technically a big block, just a bigger block than the Windsors.

But yes Ethan as was stated before, the GT40 is a Windsor engine and from recent research, not much will swap from a Cleveland to a Windsor so when looking for parts, make sure they are Windsor.

BTW - Welcome to the forum!   How about some pics of your boat??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArtCozier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2018 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

The water outlet at the intake is like that Art maybe that’s what your thinking.


Definitely talking fuel pumps. The link that Keno posted shows exactly what I referred to. The bolts are one above the other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArtCozier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2018 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

The water outlet at the intake is like that Art maybe that’s what your thinking.


Definitely talking fuel pump. The link that Keno posted shows it clearly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2018 at 6:00pm
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