Forums
NautiqueParts.comNautiqueSkins.com - Correct Craft Upholstery and Part
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Suspect Starter Relay
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Suspect Starter Relay

 Post Reply Post Reply Page    <12
Author
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10606
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 8:56am
Originally posted by KRoundy KRoundy wrote:

I have a lot of things to put right:
1. The yellow wire had no voltage to it until I turned the key.
2. I pulled the starter and it smelled awful. I'm pretty certain that it welded the contacts together. Whatever happened the result smells pretty toxic.

I'd be surprised if I miss-wired something. But to satisfy the curious:



This picture reminded me that you have a converted Pro Tec engine and that's why you have a wire on the "I" terminal on the engine mounted solenoid. I think it's wired right too.

As for the yellow wire, it should have no voltage till the key is turned
Back to Top
Mpost View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July-05-2018
Location: Monticello, MN
Status: Offline
Points: 322
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 10:46am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Being a 93 you probably have the newer style starter and this version of the TRB diagram would apply.

It's one he modified from his original, but didn't change the wording in the legend at the lower right

Note 1 in this case should say "Ford solenoid type starter" or "permanent magnet starter"




I would pay close attention to your ignition relay light when you reassemble with a new starter and connect the battery. I do not see how if the ignition switch is in the off position the light could still be on unless, something is wrong with the switch or breaker also. Or there is a path for the voltage that is not in the diagram above? But this would mean the light would always be on.
84 SN Sold   98 SN    Lund Pro V   1975 Alumacraft
Back to Top
KRoundy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: August-23-2010
Location: Lake Stevens
Status: Offline
Points: 1702
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 4:55pm
I'm going to get a new starter and will report back. Since I had the solenoid meltdown I'm thinking that I'd like to just replace the entire thing.

With regard to the weird issues about the ignition light being on and the engine turning over with the key disconnected - I'm certain that diagram is not 100% complete. There are a quite a few other wires that run off and do different things. I've actually seen the "phantom engine turn-over" thing happen on a kicker motor in a sail boat before. It was crazy. We were all looking at the engine trying to figure out what was wrong and suddenly it started to turn over. We all yelled up to the bridge, "Stop cranking the engine!!!" The guy walked out of the helm holding the key in his hand while we watched the engine crank and crank. We disconnected the battery and got a tow. Lucky for me - this time I was sitting in my driveway when it happened.
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
Back to Top
Gary S View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: November-30-2006
Location: Illinois
Status: Offline
Points: 14096
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 5:18pm
Kevin check around but check out Arco starters.I got one here the cheapest and am happy with it
69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by KRoundy KRoundy wrote:



With regard to the weird issues about the ignition light being on and the engine turning over with the key disconnected - I'm certain that diagram is not 100% complete. There are a quite a few other wires that run off and do different things. I've actually seen the "phantom engine turn-over" thing happen on a kicker motor in a sail boat before. It was crazy. We were all looking at the engine trying to figure out what was wrong and suddenly it started to turn over. We all yelled up to the bridge, "Stop cranking the engine!!!" The guy walked out of the helm holding the key in his hand while we watched the engine crank and crank. We disconnected the battery and got a tow. Lucky for me - this time I was sitting in my driveway when it happened.

Kevin,
I don't see anything wrong with that wiring diagram. You're just not listening to Ken.
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

The engine is gonna turn over like it did with the key in OFF if the solenoid contacts welded themselves together.

high current could cause the welding together of the solenoid contacts

It's always fun having to get a battery cable disconnected in that situation


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10606
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 6:42pm
I'm seeing things that are incomplete on the diagram for a converted Pro Tec setup.

This is pretty much a mid 80's diagram in the good ole' carburetor and distributor days.

One obvious thing is that Kevin has a wire hooked to the "I" terminal that doesn't show on the posted diagram but it's on the Pro Tec diagram

The Pro Tec diagram that's floating around has the old style starter so it's not exactly good for Kevin to refer to either
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10606
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 6:44pm
Those welded contacts and engine turning over is Pete's favorite low battery/high current draw scenario
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2018 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Those welded contacts and engine turning over is Pete's favorite low battery/high current draw scenario

And you like the scenario too! In fact, I believe you mentioned it in this thread before I did!

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

The engine is gonna turn over like it did with the key in OFF if the solenoid contacts welded themselves together.

high current could cause the welding together of the solenoid contacts



54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
KRoundy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: August-23-2010
Location: Lake Stevens
Status: Offline
Points: 1702
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-21-2018 at 12:02am
OK. Nothing is WRONG per say with that diagram, it just doesn't have everything that is on a 1993 era engine.

Thanks for the link Gary! I appreciate it. Ordered the starter and it is on my way.

Kevin
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
Back to Top
KRoundy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: August-23-2010
Location: Lake Stevens
Status: Offline
Points: 1702
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-29-2018 at 11:42pm
New starter in, engine cranks over like a champ. No problems, I smile to myself. I decide to crank it until it fires. After a little bit (5 seconds or so) I turn the ignition off and.... the engine keeps cranking!!! NOOOO!!!!!

I pull the cable from the battery and it repeats the condition.

My father-in-law comes over at this time and after a while we wander out so I can show him. I can't get the problem to repeat! Everything works just fine right now. I started and ran the engine for a few seconds. The starter disengaged just fine. So now I'm really confused. Help me my friends!

I checked all the voltages. Everything is working as it should (now).

I am wondering - could it be the ignition switch itself?
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
Back to Top
KRoundy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: August-23-2010
Location: Lake Stevens
Status: Offline
Points: 1702
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 1:02pm
I did some more reading last night. Potential problems:

1. Bad starter solenoid. I got a new Arco starter and solenoid unit.
2. Bad ignition switch. It could be that my 25 year old ignition switch is just bad. I have a replacement unit and wonder if I should just replace it and tear into the old one to see if I see anything suspicious?
3. Perhaps when I was cranking the engine things just got very hot?
4. I am getting good numbers (12V) everywhere. But I was thinking: Could there be an issue where the wires allow for enough current to flow that voltages look OK, but they don't allow the amps need to function properly? If that is the case, does anyone know the lengths of the positive and negative battery cables? I could take some measurements and get pretty close, or just pull them out. Then the question is - where do I go to get new battery cables? That is - where can I get good ones? Are "marine" cables different?
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
Back to Top
Gary S View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: November-30-2006
Location: Illinois
Status: Offline
Points: 14096
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 1:23pm
Bestboatwire.com Kevin. Pull your out to check the length and what type of ends,go on their site and you can custom build them. Not expensive at all either
69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 1:31pm
Kevin,
I've noticed you are checking volts but what about Ohms which you should be doing for checking continuity especially with your suspect ignition switch.


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10606
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 2:27pm
I figure, you have the switch you might as well replace it and like Gary said battery cables with good ends would be a good thing to do especially if yours are original

Even though it's a brand new battery you could get it load tested to be sure that it's a good brand new battery
Back to Top
tryathlete View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: April-19-2013
Location: Lake Villa, IL
Status: Offline
Points: 1796
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 4:49pm
Ignition switch seems like a likely culprit. Replaced mine when the same thing happened right after I bought it.
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3582
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 6:57pm
The ignition switch failing is pretty common in old boats.   I have installed 2 in my boats.
The good part is Napa had them on the shelf so replacement was not an issue.
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

The ignition switch failing is pretty common in old boats.   I have installed 2 in my boats..

I'd say more common in newer boats. They don't make them like they used to comes to mind. My "old" ones in my 64 and 54 are still working great. If you don't spend at least $35.00 for say a Cole Hersee, then you are buying a pretty low quality switch. With the rather harsh environment of marine, don't expect the low quality's to last very long.


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
KRoundy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: August-23-2010
Location: Lake Stevens
Status: Offline
Points: 1702
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2018 at 11:06pm
OK. In the next couple of days I'm going to go pull the battery cables and the dashboard. I'll pull the ignition switch and do some checking to see if I can determine if there any continuity problems. The cables are all original so I think a set of replacements are probably overdue. I'll measure them and post the results here for all. I plan to replace the positive cables from the batter to the relay and the relay to the starter. The negative cable from the battery to the block.
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
Back to Top
Mpost View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July-05-2018
Location: Monticello, MN
Status: Offline
Points: 322
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2018 at 10:44am
In one of your earlier posts you said.
"Why is my boat eating relays?"
I take it you are talking about the relay/solenoid on the engine that you have a picture of. Or are you talking about another relay.
Either case Maybe you fried another one with the bad starter?
I would agree that the ignition switch is suspect and possibly the solenoid on engine.

I have fought wiring issues in the past that showed good voltage until there was a load. Once load was applied it would drop or disappear all together. This indicates bad connections, corrosion or chewed thru wiring.
84 SN Sold   98 SN    Lund Pro V   1975 Alumacraft
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2018 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Mpost Mpost wrote:

I have fought wiring issues in the past that showed good voltage until there was a load. Once load was applied it would drop or disappear all together. This indicates bad connections, corrosion or chewed thru wiring.

Martin,
This is why I have recommended taking Ohm readings with your VOM.


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
Mpost View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July-05-2018
Location: Monticello, MN
Status: Offline
Points: 322
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2018 at 10:44am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by Mpost Mpost wrote:

I have fought wiring issues in the past that showed good voltage until there was a load. Once load was applied it would drop or disappear all together. This indicates bad connections, corrosion or chewed thru wiring.

Martin,
This is why I have recommended taking Ohm readings with your VOM.

84 SN Sold   98 SN    Lund Pro V   1975 Alumacraft
Back to Top
KRoundy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: August-23-2010
Location: Lake Stevens
Status: Offline
Points: 1702
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2018 at 10:48pm
Was hopeful that I could go work on it today - I get home and it is pouring rain. I'll check back in when I get a chance to go pull wires.
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
Back to Top
KRoundy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: August-23-2010
Location: Lake Stevens
Status: Offline
Points: 1702
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-06-2018 at 11:42pm
A dry day, finally! I pulled the battery cables. If anyone ever needs to know it is recorded here - All measurements are end to end.

Red - From battery to starter relay - 113"
Red - From relay to starter - 18"
Black - From the battery to the engine block - 70"

I installed these wires and then turned my attention to the dashboard. I pulled the existing ignition switch. I noticed some green goo on the connector that was the battery connection on the switch? I cleaned that off and wire-brushed all the connectors before installing and connecting my new ignition. I put everything back together and it works great. The engine turns over with gusto and does not keep turning when I switch off the key.

I checked the old switch with my volt-ohm meter and it appears to work OK? Although I can't (obviously) check it under load.

I got the wires at a GREAT marina near me - Harbor Marine in Everett, WA. They had cable by the foot (or inch) and the crimping tool needed to attach the proper connectors. I feel really blessed to have a great marine store near me that has such great service, people and parts.
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
Back to Top
Mpost View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July-05-2018
Location: Monticello, MN
Status: Offline
Points: 322
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 12:41am
Great
Hope that takes care of your problems
84 SN Sold   98 SN    Lund Pro V   1975 Alumacraft
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3582
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 4:07am
Glad you got it running again.
It always comes down to parts. Fix the right part and off you go again.
Enjoy it now.
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 7:57am


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
Goldcup101 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: August-27-2016
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goldcup101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2018 at 8:02am
Glad you got it sorted Kev. I've been watching the thread with interest but had no suggestions! I'm wiser now if I see the same issue!

I just left Seattle the other day, I know the weather you speak of; it rained both days I was there!
Regards, Calum
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page    <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Copyright 2024 | Bagley Productions, LLC