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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Posted: November-13-2018 at 7:13pm |
The good news is that the new coil is right for your application.with no resistor/ballast wire.
It's got a primary resistance of 3.3 ohms so no ballast resistor is necessary. I put the same coil MPI 2-5025 on a friends points setup with no resistor, a while ago and he gets a fair amount of use out of the boat and he hasn't had any problems. Since they're relatively cheap, I keep one hanging around just in case So as long as you have normal voltage at the coil positive when the engine is running (around 14) that should rule out too much voltage to the points as the cause of the problem if the old one cross referenced to the new one. Which then means..............who knows what the problem was. Maybe you had a lousy set of points or a lousy condenser. |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Old coil. I have a pic but I'm on my phone. All Black. Looks identical by shape. Written on it:
080 12V Use without external resistor Made in Mexico New coil: Masterpro from Oreilly: MPI 2-5025 12V Use without external resistor 567 |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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New Coil looks like Oreilly Masterpro or BWD.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Just out of curiosity what is the brand and part number on the old coil and also on the new coil?
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Had a coil with an internal resistor.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Hi Dave
The diagram can be found in the link on page 11 It's for a prestolite alternator and regulator. It's not a lot of good to you for much other than getting a general idea of how things are wired. Yours is a Motorcraft regulator and the alternator probably is too so the number of wires and the colors are different on your regulator. If you're getting normal voltage to the battery (around 14 volts) when it's running, then it's working right. link Before you put in the new coil did you have the same coil for use with no external resistor or did you have an external resistor and a coil for use with a resistor? Or maybe a mystery coil and no resistor? |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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New Coil with internal resistor
Pics of new solenoid and voltage regulator hooked up the same was as was the old solenoid. The red wire coming from the voltage regulator is on the positive batt side of the solenoid. The other wires coming out of the voltage regulator are purple and dark green Any chance I can get that wiring diagram link or file. I am having a tough time reading it here. Or is it in a engine manual in the reference section? Fired up the Tique this morning and let it get up to temp. Fired right up and ran well. Oil change and winterized. One funny thing, took out 4.5qts of oil (we have a small leak/drip). Replaced with 5qts of oil and still read low on the dipstick. |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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If it's a 12 gauge or so wire running like the purple wire coming from the regulator in the PCM diagram above, it's telling the regulator what the system voltage is
It could be hooked to the ballast resistor inlet like in the diagram or it could be hooked to the battery side of the solenoid, either place will work |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Will get some pics up when back at home w computer. Yes I was talking about the red wire from the voltage regulator.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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You're probably looking at the TRB typical mid 80's diagram. It doesn't show a voltage regulator because it's internal to the alternator
You should be looking at this diagram for a closer representation of what you have on your 78 Commander which would be an alternator and a separate voltage regulator The regulator should maintain the system voltage at roughly 14 volts plus or minus a little whether it's internal or external. Your original thread shows the external regulator on the back of the engine. Since you have a Commander no diagram seems to be around for that engine but the old PCM one above is fairly close. The wire colors for the voltage regulator might be different It sounds like the new points a while back were just a band aid for some other problem. What do you have for a ballast resistor/resistor wire. 999,999and 1/2 times out of a million a ballast resistor or wire fails and gives an open circuit and no voltage to the coil and therefore no spark. They don't fail in the low resistance direction and act like a solid piece of wire If your points got fried in a short period of time it sounds like high voltage/current to the coil and points from a bypassed resistor or no resistor How about a picture of the resistor showing the wiring to and from it In your last paragraph do you mean "red wire from the voltage regulator" ? Maybe a hand drawn picture of the wiring and the breaker you installed would be good to show what you're talking about |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Tried to start the tique to winterize and nothing. Cranked and cranked. Have fuel no spark. Again. Points were fried. So decided to put on a new coil/resistor. Also new points. Ready to fire and what happened...turned it over and got a click. Damnit. Traced it around and the solenoid was shot. A new one of those and boom we are back in business. Winterizing and oil change tomorrow. Hoping the resistor was shot.
A question or two: what does the voltage regulator do and why isn’t it on the wiring diagram that is so often referenced. Our red wire from the voltage resistor goes straight to the solenoid. Is that correct. It isn’t that way on our skier. We are looking at that and wondering if that defeats the purpose of the breaker we put on? |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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We'll call that a definite maybe for right now. I'll PM ya' in a week or so about it. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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One of us probably needs to post up a nice guide to trouble shooting and keeping a points system working properly,
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Well like I said in another post a little while back "like most things in life, there's usually more than one way to do the job"
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Ha, I guess I just assumed everyone tests with that method.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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It's all in the explanation and yours is hard to follow cause it's not well spelled out and it's changed on the fly.
Let's leave it at I know what I'm doing and you know what you're doing And remember before I write this stuff, I go try it to verify the results. And Dave's points/condenser were worn out and needed to be changed |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Yes you will,
You connect your VOM or test light to a positive and let the points do their job grounding that circuit out. (connect negative end to points wire) You'll see voltage fluctuation on your VOM and you will see your test light flashing as the points open and close while cranking the engine. Maybe you've never tested points using a positive supply? I have tested numbers and numbers of points systems this way. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Maybe something is getting lost in the translation here trying to talk via posts nbut if you're checking the coil negative with the black wire off off it, you'll see no voltage change while cranking And if you're checking the black wire while it's disconnected and you're cranking you'll see no volts at all. Go try it I just did Not saying his points were good, just not agreeing with your troubleshoot but that OK. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Yes, first thing to do when checking points is disconnect negative and check for voltage changes while cranking.
The points were bad and conducting on the non grounded side. New points = runny good. I didn't have him check an Ohm reading with points open. He was just showing voltage on both sides so that's all you really need to know. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Did you have Dave disconnect the distributor wire from negative side of the coil like Pete mentioned when checking the points resistance? If you don't do this, your troubleshooting is gonna give you some funny readings with the points open. They won't be infinity like you'd expect and they'll show around 15 ohms depending on the coil.. And then you'll think funny things like they're conducting across the center post. Now if you disconnect the coil negative and do the same thing you'll get accurate results For anybody that doesn't believe this, then give it a try on your points system before saying something like "that can't be" I learned that from a book called "Pete's pointers on perfecting the performance of your prehistoric but still pretty dependable points system" And verified it with some real world testing on a good running points system this morning Now I gotta go visit the shrink because I'm agreeing with Pete again |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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What Zach said above is what I was wondering about |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Did not test that.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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I'm kinda curious what your ohm reading was when the points were open Dave.
Was it zero or maybe some higher number like 15 or 20 ohms for example but nowhere near infinity? |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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No, I carry jet fuel. I did feel a little silly posting the video with the gas container in the back, not to mention my foolish face in all of it, but I was alone with nobody to video for me. I was burning off as much gas as I could so carried the can in case I ran out. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I guess now after the 40 odd years I've been running points in the X55 and the Atom, I need to make a trip to the auto supply!! Thankfully I have that EI conversion thing in the Tique. That will never give out! |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Spare race gas.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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Mine is running well too. No spare points on hand!
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Point is, points be easy.
"My boat was running rough so I did an electronic conversion. Still runs rough. " |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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I was going to happily buy an extra but I got the only set within 20mi of Badin Lake. Will have to find another set or two
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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