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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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Posted: September-03-2018 at 12:44am |
Well just a day after I posted on another thread that my boats were running well, I have a problem. My '63 has no spark, Buick V6 Sabre, all original. I thought I had narrowed it to a bad coil, but took it off the boat and with a meter the primary and secondary coils ohm out as good. On the boat I have 12 v when I go from negative and positive sides of the coil to ground, but I'm getting no spark from coil high voltage side to ground nor at distributor or spark plugs.
This is the first time the boat has been run in quite a while, but it was put away in running order. Thoughts? |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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I should add the distributor innards look perfectly clean, points opening properly though I didn't put my dwell meter on it yet.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Hi Dave
Your voltage readings are saying that the points are open. Don't know if the 12 volts negative to ground was with the engine rotating or sitting still. If it was sitting still, it just means the points are open If it was rotating and the points were opening and closing, you should see a repeating fluctuation from your 12 down to 0 and back to 12 as they open and close. They may look good and have a little corrosion preventing them from closing "electrically" Your dwell meter will tell you if they're electrically opening and closing Running a little piece of sandpaper between the points may do wonders |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Dave,
I still have one of these. I'll bet Ken has several. Note that some abrasive paper works too. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Sandpaper and point files are great to see if you can get it running but once you do plan on replacing them. Modern point sets are plated and if being used are most likely pitted anyway
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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Thanks gentlemen. I will be back at the boat in a few hours and will report back after cleaning up the points a bit, I don't have a file but some fine sandpaper will do. I have to say, I was fairly fixated on it being a wiring issue, then a bad coil, that once I saw the points were opening and all looked clean it didn't occur to me to clean them up. Good thing I have you guys to do some thinking for me! Fingers crossed ......
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Dave,
To confirm, before you clean up the contacts, disconnect the negative wire to the coil, rotate the engine so they are closed and get an Ohm reading across the contacts. |
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tjs1295
Groupie Joined: July-10-2015 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 74 |
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Just use one of your other three boats.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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Success! And, a fun afternoon in the boat. A combination of things, you guys were right on the points needing to be sanded, also had to adjust dwell, dried out plugs and cleaned them up, I changed out the coil and appeared to have a stronger spark with the new one. I'll put new points in next week and check timing, just wanted to get on the water today.
Thank you! |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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I hope you were thinking about Pete while you were playing with your points
If you have some prehistoric points like Pete, ( that's the points I'm talking about, not Pete} you're probably just as well off with the cleaning job as compared to a new set that aren't usually very good these days like Gary mentioned. |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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Tom, I chuckled when I read that! Just shows that I jinxed myself when I said that on the other thread. Funny thing is it was suggested I just bring my '98 to the lake but I don't like to give up so wanted to have the '63 running. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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Just a few more details, because I like to give feedback when I get advice and was typing on my phone earlier. Pete, I did check resistance across the points before I did anything, they were not conducting at all. Cleaned them up gently, had no resistance on the meter but after some more struggles ended up cleaning them a bit more aggressively. So that was the core problem. Dwell was around 22-25 degrees, adjusted it to 30. By the time I was again trying to start the engine had flooded, plugs were wet, I pulled all of them, dried them off, cleaned up the electrodes, spun the engine with the starter to air out the cylinders a bit, left things open for another half hour, then reinstalled plugs and it fired right up. On the coil - I guess I don't know for sure the old one was bad, but spark visually looked stronger with the new one so I went with it. When I tested the old coil last night I had around 1 1/2 ohms on the primary circuit and I think just under 6,000 ohms on the secondary. For $39 for the new coil I figured why think about it for very long.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Dave,
I'm glad you found the problem and thanks for getting back with the results. Yes, it's always great to hear back. How long had the engine been sitting for the points to corrode up? I've had them go for years of layups without issues and then sometimes one winter layup will do it. |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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It's been years since I ran it, but we were discussing and can't remember how many. Maybe 4? I've meant to get it out but in truth one of the other boats almost always makes more sense, so it sits. I was really happy to be out in it yesterday, the thing still runs extremely well, sounds great.
While of course I'd much prefer to turn the key and have it start right up, it was fun to be in the yard working on it, my siblings helped out a bit, then our neighbor came over to offer his 2 cents. His dad bought it new and I bought it from him around 1980, so everyone feels a bit connected to the boat and loves to see it still running strong. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Having a similar issue. Trouble shot it with Zach on the phone yesterday. Thinks the points are constantly grounding out. There is nice gap and the boat ran fine all summer. Was also wet in there. Dried it out well. And tried again this morning and nothing. I have gas in the carb. Anyone know what points my distributor would have. Heading to advance auto in a bit.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Dave
Here's a link to an old post with a bunch of part numbers for the points from different manufacturers. They'll be able to cross reference something and probably not have anything in stock. A NAPA might have something in stock.............maybe A little sandpaper might do wonders though. And if you keep reading you'll see some good ole' fashioned bickering about condensers too link |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Napa might have something,mine in Florida did. But it took two tries,first time I didn't even make it out of the canal before the condenser failed. 2nd time was the charm and is still in there.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4232 |
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Definitely sounds similar to my problem, and refreshing the surface on my points and resetting dwell was the cure.
One final item on my boat ..... I found that it was starting hard on cold starts, particularly after damp weather. The plug wires were old and looking closer could see they were cracked in places, I replaced them and instantly had stronger spark and now cold starts are fine. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Thanks for the help. Made the rounds to 4 auto parts stores yesterday. Oreilly was the winner with points. Came back to lake and popped them in and a new condenser. Set gap and got lucky on first try. Started up and ran like a top yesterday afternoon. Fingers crossed this morning. Will check dwell when I have a meter. Gaped to .017 with a feeler. Thanks also to Zach and Tim for some troubleshooting. Skied Larry, Joel and myself yesterday and got up to ~45 with 2 in the boat.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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David,
Did you try to clean up the point contact faces with abrasive paper or a file? Dave didn't need to go to 4 auto parts stores after he cleaned them up! If it happens again, get the VOM out and Ohm out the points. You will want to disconnect the - wire off the coil, rotate the engine so the point set is closed and then Ohm between the wire off the coil and ground. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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He did Pete. His points set had started transferring electricity via the pivot point so no amount of cleaning would fix that issue.
Now David has a really nice understanding of how a points ignition system operates. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Yes, a little testing goes a long way and you avoid just throwing parts at a unconfirmed problem. I remember a Prestolite that was giving me problems. They use a machine screw through the side of the distributor body that the point set and the - wire are connected to. The screw has insulating washers and a bushing to keep the screw from grounding to the body. The bushing was out of position so the coil was constantly grounded. The VOM told the truth!!! |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6147 |
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Ha, I believe the points Mallory distributors are set up with the pass through stud and insulators.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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I'll second that Ha And............I won't even ask how ugly those points would have to be to conduct thru the center pivot. |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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Guess we need a pic of the old points. Tomorrow I’ll be back a computer to post one. And I did lightly sand them with 220 before phoning a friend.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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jbear
Grand Poobah Joined: January-21-2005 Location: Lake Wales FL. Status: Offline Points: 8193 |
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confirmed...the 2 in the boat were me and Gene Monahan. I even got to drive...for about 500 yards.... john |
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"Loud pipes save lives"
AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
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Air206
Grand Poobah Joined: September-28-2008 Location: Roanoke, VA Status: Offline Points: 3000 |
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It happened........... Click For Full-Size Image. Click For Full-Size Image. |
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samudj01
Gold Member Joined: March-10-2009 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 933 |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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I guess Zach will have to explain how they were conducting thru the center post/pivot point |
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