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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: No Spark
    Posted: September-03-2018 at 12:44am
Well just a day after I posted on another thread that my boats were running well, I have a problem. My '63 has no spark, Buick V6 Sabre, all original. I thought I had narrowed it to a bad coil, but took it off the boat and with a meter the primary and secondary coils ohm out as good. On the boat I have 12 v when I go from negative and positive sides of the coil to ground, but I'm getting no spark from coil high voltage side to ground nor at distributor or spark plugs.

This is the first time the boat has been run in quite a while, but it was put away in running order.

Thoughts?
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 1:02am
I should add the distributor innards look perfectly clean, points opening properly though I didn't put my dwell meter on it yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 8:05am
Hi Dave

Your voltage readings are saying that the points are open.

Don't know if the 12 volts negative to ground was with the engine rotating or sitting still.

If it was sitting still, it just means the points are open

If it was rotating and the points were opening and closing, you should see a repeating fluctuation from your 12 down to 0 and back to 12 as they open and close.

They may look good and have a little corrosion preventing them from closing "electrically"

Your dwell meter will tell you if they're electrically opening and closing

Running a little piece of sandpaper between the points may do wonders
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 9:53am
Dave,
I still have one of these. I'll bet Ken has several.



Note that some abrasive paper works too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 11:21am
Sandpaper and point files are great to see if you can get it running but once you do plan on replacing them. Modern point sets are plated and if being used are most likely pitted anyway
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 12:23pm
Thanks gentlemen. I will be back at the boat in a few hours and will report back after cleaning up the points a bit, I don't have a file but some fine sandpaper will do. I have to say, I was fairly fixated on it being a wiring issue, then a bad coil, that once I saw the points were opening and all looked clean it didn't occur to me to clean them up. Good thing I have you guys to do some thinking for me! Fingers crossed ......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 12:29pm
Dave,
To confirm, before you clean up the contacts, disconnect the negative wire to the coil, rotate the engine so they are closed and get an Ohm reading across the contacts.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tjs1295 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 1:07pm
Just use one of your other three boats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 8:29pm
Success! And, a fun afternoon in the boat. A combination of things, you guys were right on the points needing to be sanded, also had to adjust dwell, dried out plugs and cleaned them up, I changed out the coil and appeared to have a stronger spark with the new one. I'll put new points in next week and check timing, just wanted to get on the water today.

Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2018 at 8:40pm
I hope you were thinking about Pete while you were playing with your points

If you have some prehistoric points like Pete, ( that's the points I'm talking about, not Pete} you're probably just as well off with the cleaning job as compared to a new set that aren't usually very good these days like Gary mentioned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2018 at 12:42am
Originally posted by tjs1295 tjs1295 wrote:

Just use one of your other three boats.

Tom, I chuckled when I read that! Just shows that I jinxed myself when I said that on the other thread. Funny thing is it was suggested I just bring my '98 to the lake but I don't like to give up so wanted to have the '63 running.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2018 at 12:54am
Just a few more details, because I like to give feedback when I get advice and was typing on my phone earlier. Pete, I did check resistance across the points before I did anything, they were not conducting at all. Cleaned them up gently, had no resistance on the meter but after some more struggles ended up cleaning them a bit more aggressively. So that was the core problem. Dwell was around 22-25 degrees, adjusted it to 30. By the time I was again trying to start the engine had flooded, plugs were wet, I pulled all of them, dried them off, cleaned up the electrodes, spun the engine with the starter to air out the cylinders a bit, left things open for another half hour, then reinstalled plugs and it fired right up. On the coil - I guess I don't know for sure the old one was bad, but spark visually looked stronger with the new one so I went with it. When I tested the old coil last night I had around 1 1/2 ohms on the primary circuit and I think just under 6,000 ohms on the secondary. For $39 for the new coil I figured why think about it for very long.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2018 at 7:06am
Dave,
I'm glad you found the problem and thanks for getting back with the results. Yes, it's always great to hear back.
How long had the engine been sitting for the points to corrode up? I've had them go for years of layups without issues and then sometimes one winter layup will do it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2018 at 11:04am
It's been years since I ran it, but we were discussing and can't remember how many. Maybe 4? I've meant to get it out but in truth one of the other boats almost always makes more sense, so it sits. I was really happy to be out in it yesterday, the thing still runs extremely well, sounds great.

While of course I'd much prefer to turn the key and have it start right up, it was fun to be in the yard working on it, my siblings helped out a bit, then our neighbor came over to offer his 2 cents. His dad bought it new and I bought it from him around 1980, so everyone feels a bit connected to the boat and loves to see it still running strong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2018 at 1:54am



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-06-2018 at 10:25am
Having a similar issue. Trouble shot it with Zach on the phone yesterday. Thinks the points are constantly grounding out. There is nice gap and the boat ran fine all summer. Was also wet in there. Dried it out well. And tried again this morning and nothing. I have gas in the carb. Anyone know what points my distributor would have. Heading to advance auto in a bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-06-2018 at 11:19am
Dave

Here's a link to an old post with a bunch of part numbers for the points from different manufacturers. They'll be able to cross reference something and probably not have anything in stock.

A NAPA might have something in stock.............maybe

A little sandpaper might do wonders though.

And if you keep reading you'll see some good ole' fashioned bickering about condensers too   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-06-2018 at 11:59am
Napa might have something,mine in Florida did. But it took two tries,first time I didn't even make it out of the canal before the condenser failed. 2nd time was the charm and is still in there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-06-2018 at 3:41pm
Definitely sounds similar to my problem, and refreshing the surface on my points and resetting dwell was the cure.

One final item on my boat ..... I found that it was starting hard on cold starts, particularly after damp weather. The plug wires were old and looking closer could see they were cracked in places, I replaced them and instantly had stronger spark and now cold starts are fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 10:19am
Thanks for the help. Made the rounds to 4 auto parts stores yesterday. Oreilly was the winner with points. Came back to lake and popped them in and a new condenser. Set gap and got lucky on first try. Started up and ran like a top yesterday afternoon. Fingers crossed this morning. Will check dwell when I have a meter. Gaped to .017 with a feeler. Thanks also to Zach and Tim for some troubleshooting. Skied Larry, Joel and myself yesterday and got up to ~45 with 2 in the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 11:07am
David,
Did you try to clean up the point contact faces with abrasive paper or a file? Dave didn't need to go to 4 auto parts stores after he cleaned them up!

If it happens again, get the VOM out and Ohm out the points. You will want to disconnect the - wire off the coil, rotate the engine so the point set is closed and then Ohm between the wire off the coil and ground.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 11:43am
He did Pete. His points set had started transferring electricity via the pivot point so no amount of cleaning would fix that issue.

Now David has a really nice understanding of how a points ignition system operates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

He did Pete. His points set had started transferring electricity via the pivot point so no amount of cleaning would fix that issue.

Yes, a little testing goes a long way and you avoid just throwing parts at a unconfirmed problem. I remember a Prestolite that was giving me problems. They use a machine screw through the side of the distributor body that the point set and the - wire are connected to. The screw has insulating washers and a bushing to keep the screw from grounding to the body. The bushing was out of position so the coil was constantly grounded. The VOM told the truth!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 1:53pm
Ha, I believe the points Mallory distributors are set up with the pass through stud and insulators.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2018 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

Ha, I believe the points Mallory distributors are set up with the pass through stud and insulators.


I'll second that Ha

And............I won't even ask how ugly those points would have to be to conduct thru the center pivot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2018 at 12:54am
Guess we need a pic of the old points. Tomorrow I’ll be back a computer to post one. And I did lightly sand them with 220 before phoning a friend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2018 at 1:19am
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

Skied Larry, Joel and myself yesterday and got up to ~45 with 2 in the boat.


confirmed...the 2 in the boat were me and Gene Monahan. I even got to drive...for about 500 yards....



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Air206 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2018 at 2:06am
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:

Thanks for the help. Made the rounds to 4 auto parts stores yesterday. Oreilly was the winner with points. Came back to lake and popped them in and a new condenser. Set gap and got lucky on first try. Started up and ran like a top yesterday afternoon. Fingers crossed this morning. Will check dwell when I have a meter. Gaped to .017 with a feeler. Thanks also to Zach and Tim for some troubleshooting. Skied Larry, Joel and myself yesterday and got up to ~45 with 2 in the boat.


It happened...........

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-09-2018 at 1:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-09-2018 at 1:32am
Originally posted by samudj01 samudj01 wrote:



I guess Zach will have to explain how they were conducting thru the center post/pivot point
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